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Comment by hobbes | Hacker News Reader

English guy here, living in Scotland.

I personally don't take offence at the anti-English banter.

But, I challenge you to engage in the same kind of banter with Asians, blacks, or homosexuals, etc, and let me know how that pans out for you.

Is there a material difference, apart from the fact that English people don't take offence? In my opinion, anti-English statements don't really offend because a sense of Englishness is felt much less by an Englishman compared to how a Scot would feel his/her Scottishness. We're just not a very nationalistic buch.

I do agree that most Scottish people have no problem with English folk. On a personal level, it is just "banter". The more distateful sentiments are aimed at England as a nation, as far as I have experienced.

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OK, let's do why anti-white (or anti-English) sentiment isn't the same as anti-black sentiment.

The issue isn't banter, it's that in some cases historical context gives "banter" overtones of something far more serious.

The Scots didn't buy and sell the English as property as recently as 100 years ago (did you know Britain only abolished slavery in parts of Nigeria in 1936?), the English didn't have their behaviour outlawed in the way homosexuals have (and they still don't have equality in the UK though it's getting closer) and the English can't make any claim that given a particular level of intelligence or ability they are less likely to go to university and more likely to end up in prison the way that would be the case if they were black.

Being English in Scotland offers no genuine sacrifice, disadvantage or oppression and hasn't for a long long time if ever. The same isn't true of any of the minority groups you mention.

So banter is fine and if you're English in Scotland it is just banter.

If you're in another minority group with a more difficult history then you need to consider that banter often hides or raises the spectre of something worse which makes it a very different thing.

So, based on the context you have described, it is impossible for me to experience racism in Scotland under the veil of "banter". It can only be just a joke?

That's not what I said at all and I suspect you know it.

What I'm saying is that taking what often gets said between English and Scots and drawing a parallel to how they might be seen if directed towards the minority groups you mention isn't a valid comparison.

A history of discrimination can give certain remarks a very different meaning. Context is everything and centuries of oppression is quite some context and doesn't exist between the English and Scots (at least not in a way that the English can have any issue with).

So does this not mean that a white person in (say) Nigeria would not be able to claim they were experiencing racism if they were targeted because of their skin colour? [I'm not, in any way trying to be inflammatory]

I actually agree with a lot of what you're saying, but I'm not sure historical context gives a perfect mechanism to categorize racism or banter, but it does give a lot of weight, certainly.

The lack of historical discrimination doesn't preclude discrimination happening now, and the existence of it doesn't preclude the possibility that banter can just be banter and be taken as such on both sides.

What it does mean is that you can't just assume that the same words or behaviour means the same thing when directed at different groups.

The specific example I was responding to said try saying some of the things a Scot might say to and Englishman to a black person and see how far you get. My response to that is you can say the same words in the same tone of voice but it doesn't mean the same thing as everything that came before and goes along with those words is different.

I'm not saying that Scots can't be genuinely prejudiced against English (in a small number of cases they are - there are arseholes in every society), I'm saying what is acceptable or unacceptable between Scots and English is not the same as what's acceptable between white people and black people.

To turn it the other way around, I'm sure it wouldn't take much to find something I could say to a Scot about their history which would be horribly insulting but wouldn't be remotely offensive to, say, an Asian.

Does the fact that the Asian man didn't find it insulting make it OK to say to the Scot?

So, what criteria must hold for "banter" to be classed as racism towards an Englishman in Scotland?

The usual criteria for comment to be deemed racism is that it causes offence (whether intended or not) and had a racial component.

So, the only difference between the anti-English banter I experience and racism is that I don't get offended?

You had better hope I don't start being offended, then! :)

And, yes, this argument also applies to Scots living in England, or any other similar situation.

You should be aware that exactly the same sort of banter is directed by English people at Welsh, Scots, French, Americans and practically every other nation living in England (I've experienced some of this myself as a Scot living in England), it is exactly the same in tone and intent as ribbing of English people in Scotland, and yes, sometimes it does have a nasty edge to it in any country, esp. when it is directed in a general way at an entire nation/race.

Silly, and sometimes ignorant, but there we are, that's patriotism for you; the last refuge of the scoundrel, as an erudite Englishman once said - you should hear what he had to say about the benighted scots...

Having lived in a few places, I'd say people everywhere like to generalise about other nations and tell themselves they know what 'those people' are like, I've done it myself a few times, and I've always been wrong when I did.

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