The College Backlash Is a Mirage | Hacker News Reader

The College Backlash Is a Mirage

theatlantic.com

If you look at the conjunction of standards going down, and student loans effectively being government sanctioned predatory debt subsidized by taxpayer dollars, and "education" being a sacred cow in certain circles, then of course degree mills are going to be churning out more than ever before.

People aren't being educated, they're being credentialed, and you can no longer assume the quality of a credential. I will trust 100 of 100 people who can coherently explain a system or process over people purportedly credentialed for a thing.

It's far easier to make more money in trades, or to earn experience and work outside traditional career ladders with no degree. These days you can gain experience in technical domains and even without certifications or degrees you can get to the top 5% of paying jobs. Not all jobs, not everywhere, but it's very, very common to see experience exceptions. Prove you can do a thing, that you're good at a thing, and that matters far more than a degree.

The best you can assume from a degree is that a person has enough persistence to stick it out for 4 years on a singular goal. In rare instances, their capabilities are going to align well with the best of what their credentials imply, and they'll actually be exemplary.

Most of the time, in my experience, degrees are nothing more than attendance slips, these days. Congratulations, you're literate and showed up.

It is hard to tease out what's going on because:

- The public school system now acts as though its only goal is college prep

- Above means that many of the kids most likely to excel at trades (i.e. the hard workers) go to college, because if you work hard at HS you will both get the credentials needed to get into college and be told it's the right path for you

- The kids who slacked at High School often also slack at the trades and switch to a minimum-ish wage job where they won't get fired for being on their phones for 50% of their clocked hours.

> - Above means that many of the kids most likely to excel at trades (i.e. the hard workers) go to college, because if you work hard at HS you will both get the credentials needed to get into college and be told it's the right path for you

Well, also that working in trades are long days that are hard on your body in a feast or famine industry. Vs being an engineer is easy on the body, barely 8 hours of work most days, and you get paid vacation, good health insurance, etc.

My dad is a career electrician who discouraged me from getting into the trades by hiring me as a teenager. He'd often point out that the engineers on job sites were paid more than both of us put together and they got to chill out in the A/C most of the time, and they came to the site later and left earlier than we did.

I do genuinely enjoy designing/building/fixing things. But the reality is, I'm much better off using my brain for work, and tinkering in the garage for fun. Anyone smart enough to be a great tradesperson is smart enough to do that calculus.

That's probably the real problem there; going into trades is pareto-suboptimal (for any combination of motivation and talent, you can get a better job)

I'm curious:

"standards going down"

and "degrees are nothing more than attendance slips"

What do you think a degree should be? I think because of selection effects, it's always been hard to figure out if universities actually do anything. Did the ivies educate people the best? Or did they just have the most rigorous admissions process to let the best people in. With an increase in the number of white collar workers, we've inherently had to lower the standards.

The whole college backlash thing - I mean, I'm sure there are many people who want to change how colleges and universities operate for sure, but is there really an alternative especially for white collar, middle class+ folks? Sure a small percent can start a business, and yes, some people will naturally be part of the trades, but I 'haven't actually heard anyone propose an alternative, and zero of my family members including the very conservative ones seem to be taking the idea of not going to college seriously.

From the article:

“Oftentimes, people say that not everybody should go to college, and that these two-year programs, these trade schools, are really good,” Strohl said. “Ask them where they’re sending their kids.”

We're in this moment where I think everyone wants to talk about burning everything down, but at least for now, the real losers are the people who buy too much into it without a solid alternative plan. Entrepeneurs may do well, but they were never the ones to listen to the median perspective on how to approach life.

I've noticed the same thing with regards to actually attending college. People still go; they just complain about it more.

The only change is that there is a much more cynical feeling about the experience. School spirit is out. People see it as "a ripoff I must endure to get a decent job and be taken seriously."

I graduated years ago. When my college (major state uni) called asking for a donation, I laughed the guy off the phone. The idea of "school spirit" seems like a joke to me, as it does for many students these days.

The new cope is to see if you can't do it as cheaply as possible, lop off a year, get scholarships, do a bunch of AP courses prior, etc.

Basically, a lot of students see the process as a box to check as if they were standing in line at the DMV to get their diploma.

I think 'mirage' is the wrong word; college very much has gone out of vogue as a place of learning. But if you want to get a good job, you still do need to go to get the piece of paper, regardless of whether you think you'll be learning anything. The other factor you have to keep in mind is that college is where every 'smart' 20ish yo goes. If you want to meet people your age similar to you they are most likely all in college! It's difficult as a 20ish yo to have a social life outside of college.

I personally took a gap year working at a startup mid college, and as much as I enjoyed working I still ended up coming back to college purely for those two reasons.

"college very much has gone out of vogue as a place of learning"

Has it? Is there data behind this? The only thing I've seen so far is hot takes from tech CEO's.

I think it might be better framed as "college doesn't seem like it's worth it".

Some of this is back of the napkin math of degree costs having risen so much, but also likelihood of using your degree or getting a professional job having fallen.

I often wonder - Hacker News seems like it might bias towards people who might be more self driven in their learning, does the mean student who is driven enough to go to class but doesn’t have the drive or understanding to learn on their own feel the same way? Especially in terms of bootstrapping a new skill. I’m very self-driven but could imagine college for like getting to that base professional level for something way out of my day-to-day. Particularly I think like I have a masters in counseling psychology, and I don’t think I could imagine that in my own without peers to discuss with and teachers to share professional experience.

At the same time - I’ve always been naturally good at tech. I could imagine when I was younger a CS degree being useful. Now, there are certainly gaps in my knowledge, but I’m well past the bootstrapping phase.

I haven't looked at the source but the first paragraph of the article shows the percentage of people thinking a college education is important or worth it declining in the last decade. This is what I was referring to, but to be fair I don't know if college has actually gotten worse or if it's solely a change in what people think. For me personally it definitely is not useful at all for learning.

People who are interested in specific career tracks are obligated to go to university. Medicine, law, teaching, certain forms of engineering all require a degree. Fields like business, accounting, public service (even police/fire) and other forms engineering practically require a degree - while a person can break into some of those fields without them, the majority of people have degrees.

Also, I think a good bit of people are pushing anti-college sentiment as a way to keep other peoples' kids out of college, saving space for theirs and reducing competition for jobs. I've run into quite a few white collar professions that espouse "trades" (generically, of course) as a clearly better alternative to university, but aren't pushing their kids in that direction.

Real "college backlash" won't come until degree requirements fall for careers. Which is not something I see happening.

Something else to consider is that most of our endeavors in life would be improved with a liberal arts education behind them. It's never wasted time unless you do that on purpose. Even in the trades the person with a relevant degree will go farther, faster.

https://archive.ph/pm1c1

There is a demographic element to this. Right about now we are at peak enrollment/competitiveness for colleges based on the number of total students in the country. That number will steadily decline from here, which will combined with the declining sentiment of students and the job market will likely result in some major shakeups (colleges failing) over the next decade or so.

Everyone wants to look at sentiment and enrollment numbers alone, but the demographic outlook is a huge factor in all of this.

Paywalled, but does this article take into account college being used as a mechanism to immigrate?

https://educationdata.org/college-enrollment-statistics

>U.S. Nonresident Enrollment

>Since 2010, attendance is up 36.8%.

Also, US births peaked around 18 years ago, and:

>The only jurisdictions to see an increase in the number of students enrolled since 2010 are New Hampshire, Utah, Idaho, Delaware, and Texas, as well as the District of Columbia.

The higher education system is largely a scam. I have a degree in CS but I didn't really need to get it. I was already coding in C++ and other languages before I even went. I used to argue the opposite and that I would never have learned O notation (and its purpose), or red-black trees, etc... But the internet since the time I graduated (2003) has massively filled out what you can learn. Yes a college "forces" you to learn this stuff - but there HAS to be another way to FORCE someone to look at YT without taking on 100k of debt.

The one thing I would say that I agree about however is there is a difference in a person that went to college vs one that didn't. It's not exactly what they learned, but the filter they had to punish themselves through to say "I finished college". And yes, there is no other filter that does that. You can find people like that who didn't go to college too, but the "filter" is a convenient thing for employers.

We need to go back to a system where there are apprentices and masters and get rid of this entire college thing. The filter works just as well in those scenarios without putting people in 100k of debt.

So what you’re quite literally saying is that a college degree is proof that you learned the course material well enough to pass exams and that you were reliable enough to follow through with completing a large project, the large project being a significant load of college attendance, coursework, hands-on labs, group projects, and exams.

But then in the previous breath you said it’s a scam? What makes it a scam? You just said yourself that it is bonafide proof of a base ability to follow through and proof of some non-zero level of knowledge absorption.

If you didn’t go to school you’d just be telling your prospective employer “hey don’t worry I already know C++” and they’d have to find some way of verifying that skill set on their own.

Meanwhile, your competition who went to school can say “I got a 4.0 in all my fundamental accredited coursework and I was the front end designer for my group capstone project with 3 other students where we built a dog walking gig app, here’s how we worked together to make decisions and resolve issues…”

If the only thing that makes it a scam is the price…that’s a weak argument. And we have the statistics to show us that college degree holders still out-earn high school graduates greatly.

When we see the wealthy stop sending their kids to Wharton and Harvard then you know it’s a scam.

> We need to go back to a system where there are apprentices and masters

Apprenticeships are still around in the modern day -- including for white-collar jobs! Kelly Vedi writes a lot about this in her Substack: https://kellyvedi.substack.com/

>without taking on 100k of debt.

>without putting people in 100k of debt

This exists, and it's called "attending a state school."

You can cut the costs by roughly 50% more by going to community college for two years and transferring.

From there data, it looks like you only regret college once you graduate and look for jobs. What I've heard from people is that there's still a lot of pressure to go to college, and students who've said they wanted to go into trades/plumbing/etc end up getting pushed into college by senior year. School is still set up to push students into college, and I'm not sure that's a good idea since so many people who attend seem to regret it.

If you go to cheap local public schools there's nothing to regret. Most Americans k-12 go to public schools then suddenly at college public options aren't good anymore?

Though dorms are probably the only time in your adult life all your friends are walking distance away and free to hang out.

The campus life for 18-22 year olds can be an amazing experience. It can be super stimulating socially, intellectually, culturally. Or it can be a 4-year drinking binge. Depends on the school, the person and the peer group the person can find.

There is a huge variation in quality of local colleges, and in opportunity that arises from them. As every reader here knows, Americans are super class-conscious and pretty competitive, so a good local school will seem like "settling". And, they're not free by any means.

I would argue a cheap public school can be a huge mistake. At least where I'm from, the higher ranked public schools cost the most, and going to a cheap school means you missed 4 years of wages, you still paid some amount of money, and you have a degree which isn't useful. Even in engineering I've seen plenty of managers who won't give "good" jobs out to "worse" schools, and small state schools have unknown reputations and will be the first to get passed up in a questionable job market.

Getting a bad degree from a cheap/bad public school seems like a bad life decision. There is so much more to gain by not getting tattoos and looking presentable instead of getting a degree from a school people don't respect

Eh, I got a cheap degree from a public school (URI), albeit in Mathematics and not Comp Sci and it hasn't stopped me getting good tech jobs over the last decade or so. I'm currently working at a FAANG. Maybe I'm just extra hard-working, smart, or lucky? Or maybe your pedigree isn't as big a deal as it once was? Hard to say from my N=1 data point.

I guess the point I was trying to get at is the flagship public research university in your state doesn't count, URI isn't even cheap compared to other flagship public universities. I went to the flagship public school in my state, I don't consider it cheap. I'm thinking more like lake superior college in MI, or UW-Stout in Wisconsin. They're cheaper than the flagship public school, but because of their lack of name recognition and assumptions employers make (like did this person go to superior because it was cheap, or because that's the only place they got in?), I've seen people struggle to get good jobs after attending, particularly during rough economies.

As a test, look in your IT department. I wouldn't be surprised if it's full of people from community colleges and lower ranked "cheap" colleges with engineering degrees. I like the idea of just going to the cheapest school but ranking unfortunately matters to a lot of employers, and ranking is usually correlated with cost.

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