The code surface with SSG + 1 or 2 small self-hosted OSS tools is much, much smaller than it ever was running Drupal or another CMS.
But all you've done in bought on all the pain and compromise of having to think from an SSG perspective, and that created problems which you've already identified you'll figure out in future
I'm suggesting 2 or 3 small self-hosted OSS tools, where one is a small hand crafted server that basically takes a markdown file, renders it, and serves it as plain HTML with a header/footer.
This is more homogenous, fewer unique parts/processes, and doesn't have the constraint of dealing with an SSG.
I remember my own personal pain from 2010 - 2016ish of managing Drupal and Joomla. I did exactly the same as you in 2016 and went all in on SSGs and in 2024, I realised all of the above. I feel like I wasted years of potential development time reinventing basic personal website features to try and work with an SSG and you literally have a ticket to do just that: https://github.com/geerlingguy/jeffgeerling-com/issues/167. 1 of your 3 solutions involves letting someone else host your comments:(
A custom framework/server is the end destination for all nerdy personal websites - I can't wait to see what you make when you realise this:)
edit/p.s. I love you and all your work. Sorry for sounding disagreeable, I'm excited to see what you learn from you SSG journey, I hope you prove me wrong!
For me, an unstated reason for SSG is being able to scale to millions of requests per hour without scaling up my server to match.
Serving static HTML is insanely easy, even on a cheap $5-10/month VPS. Serving anything dynamic at all is an order of magnitude harder.
Though... I've been using Cloudflare since 2022, after I started getting regular targeted DDoSes (was fun initially, seeing someone target different parts of Drupal, until I just locked down everything except for the final comment pages). The site will randomly get 1-2 million requests in a few minutes, and now Cloudflare eats those quickly, instead of my VPS getting locked up.
Ideally, I'll be able to host without Cloudflare in front at some point, but every month, because of one or two attacks, the site's using 25-35 TB of bandwidth (at least according to CF).
I totally see where you're coming from, but you just said it yourself, SSGs don't actually solve any problems for you right now that cloudflare doesn't. A site of Jeffgeerling.com scale is the archetypal scale site that _should_ benefit from SSGs, but Cloudflare is the easier, and arguably better, solution to the traffic/bot/scale problem.
If the problem you hit with Drupal is that it was more and less than you needed and became a headache to maintain, you will hit the same problem with Hugo eventually.
The solution to that problem is to just write your own server side that does what you need. It's so much more fun and rewarding, and I'm confident if you did it, the output would be better. With modern servers and server side technologies, you would most likely not have a problem running your minimal MD->html server on your current VPS behind Cloudflare.
Worst case scenario is you spend your time dealing with problems or misunderstandings with your own code, at least that'll be a refreshing change to dealing with problem or misunderstandings in Drupal's or Hugo's code or decisions.
There's a time and a place for SSGs, and geerlingengineering is the perfect use case, because it has no real interactivity. But - again, please take this from a place of candour than intended offence - from a user perspective, in the process of migrating Jeffgeerling.com to hugo, comments and search have been broken. Your migration to Hugo has just begun, you did the easy hugo part and created a post suggesting it was done. But the extra phases and tickets for comments and search suggest there's no obvious and easy answer on how to finish migrating interactive bits to an SSG.
Custom server side software is a complete solution, SSGs restrict what your complete solution can be without being one themselves. Nobody really seems to mention this until they move away from SSGs.
(Sorry for the bluntness again! Thanks again for your content, I stumble across your stuff all the time. I migrated my dad from a Windows XP machine to a Pi, and your resources are particularly useful and accessible for both of us!)
"Why go to all the burden of serving a few k of static html directly when you could just require a globe-spanning mega cdn?"
I feel you're missing my point which was "SSGs aren't good for sites which require interactivity because they force compromises elsewhere", a corollary to that is that for any problem an SSG promises to solve, if you have interactivity on your site, you probably already have a better solution available. E.g Jeff/bots/traffic/cloudflare.
I really want to know because there is a Drupal 7 site that I need to migrate to something but I need good search on it (I’m using solr now).
Edit: I should have specified that I need more functionality than just word searching. I need filtering (ie faceted search) too. I’ve used a SSG that uses a JavaScript index and appreciate it, but that’s not going to cut it for this project.
When does this become 1 step forward with the SSG and 2 steps back with search solutions like this?
Nothing is perfect, but the above is really simple to host, is low maintenance, and easy to secure.
Sorry, I don't mean to come across as disagreeable. You're right, nothing is perfect, and this is obviously a workable and usable solution. My issue is if we analyse it beyond "it looks like it works", it starts to look like a slightly worse solution than what we already had.
Nothing wrong with moving backwards in some direction, as long as we can clearly point to some benefit we're getting elsewhere. My issues with SSGs is most of the benefits they offer end up undermined if you want any interactivity. This is a good example of that, as you end up compromising on build time and page load time compared to an SSR search solution.
You don't see how the server based solution is an order of magnitude more effort to maintain, monitor, optimize, and secure compared to hosting static files? Especially if search is a minor feature of your site, keeping the hosting simple can be a very reasonable tradeoff.
Lots of blogs/sites also do fine with only category and tag filtering (most SSGs have this built in) without text search, and users can use a search engine if they need more.
I agree with you, lots of blogs/sites do fine with just tag/category. Those sites don't have interactivity and so you could SSG them and use free static hosting. We're in agreement on this. But I have explicitly been talking about sites that want interaction. Still - how many personal sites that "do fine without interactivity" are actually "interactivity was too much of a technical/maintenance challenge"?
I completely see how a server based solution is an order of magnitude more effort. We agree on that too. Running any servers efficiently typically has fixed overhead for server infra and processes. Running 3 pieces of server software or even 3 servers is harder than 1, but significantly less than 3x harder.
If you want interactivity, a server is needed. This means you are already maintaining, monitoring, optimising and securing a server solution. Adding SSG processes alongside your existing server solution does not remove any problems relating to servers, because you still have servers. It does add complexity though because you're running servers, and some SSG pipelines. These architectures clash and create more work. Running 2 conflicting architectures can be a lot more more than 2x harder than running 1 architecture.
If you want interactivity and don't want to run a server, then you must use a 3rd party service. This brings its own issues, especially if you have a personal website because you want to own your own stuff.
I feel like you're repeating to me "servers are hard, SSGs are good" - you can't have an SSG without a server, and you definitely can't have interactivity. If you have a server anyways for comments or search, then by using SSGs, you're not removing your need to deal with servers, you're adding an extra picky new thing to your servers. And what complex feature of a personal website does the SSG solve specifically? Generate the text/HTML. Compared to comments and search, generating html from markdown is so painfully easy. SSGs tie our hands behind our backs for the hard interactivity problems to solve the easy text rendering problem.
This seems like a really, really crystal clear point to me. But you, Jeff and Susam have all tried to say that SSGs are generally better, easier, safer or faster. I felt like that from 2016 - 2024. But when you've been pressed, all of you have ended up saying variations on:
- SSGs are great for sites without interactivity (agree, you know and I know though, most personal websites do want some form of interactivity, even just search or comments, and the only reason not to is technical hurdles.)
- Comments and Search are doable with SSGs, but not trivially, or without compromising on things which were traditionally seen as crucial for an open and accessible web (agree, see jeffs comments and search tickets)
- You use SSGs not to solve any particular problem, but just for fun. (agree, that's fine, but if that's your only reason, that's probably a sign there's virtually no technical advantages.)
- The problems you used the SSG for originally have been solved with compute power, storage, connectivity and bandwidth becoming more available over the past decade
I really appreciate and respect your's, Jeff's and Susam's time to respond, I want to be in agreement with you, as you all have the experience and reputation in personal websites. I just can't see it though. I mean this whole HN topic is about Jeff's post "Jeffgeerling.com has been migrated to Hugo" which on the surface looks like a success for the ease of SSGs, but when you probe deeper, it's the text that's been migrated, and comments and search have been disabled.
Why are we here if SSGs are so obviously the easiest, most reliable way to run a personal website? Jeff's site is currently working less than it did before and the fixes are future TODOs are essentially "pick a compromise" (sorry, no offence Jeff - I still think you're great!)
For my own solo projects, the ease of hosting for static sites is often such a big win for me that I'm willing to forego some interactivity even though more interactive features would be nice. Knowing that I can upload several static sites and they'll run themselves without any maintenance for years and without potential security problems keeps my life nice and calm. It depends what you want to prioritize.
I still do feel there's something not quite right. Hopefully I'll be able to get it out in the summary as I think we're all done with walls of text here. But I think you actually captured it perfectly in your last remark:
> For my own solo projects, the ease of hosting for static sites is often such a big win for me that I'm willing to forego some interactivity even though more interactive features would be nice.
They make the web worse for the world by tempting the developer to take the easier, less interactive route than what would have been taken in the pre-SSG world.
I think I'm troubled by this because the idea "it makes it easy to do the lazy, worse thing" seems completely at odds with the fact that it seems to be what the people I would consider leaders in the field are doing. That's why I still wonder if this view might be a me problem, or maybe the field is just moving backwards? I don't know.
Anyway, thanks again!
If I didn't have the static site option though, I might not host a project at all because I don't want to have to deal with the maintenance burden. I haven't kept up but it would be nice if there were more options between a no-maintenance static site hosting, and a high-maintenance dynamic site.
Would be amazing if the web/browsers had standardized ways by now of easily adding common website features like authentication, search, comments, votes, and saving user data (via bring your own storage) that didn't require everyone to host and maintain a custom stack. Email is a solved problem that you don't have to host yourself for example, why is it still such an effort for the other common website features?
This is essentially my position in fewer and less argumentative words, including the "I haven't kept up bit", really:)
Your last paragraph was also really thought provoking. I'm torn on that though. I agree it's an almost off-putting amount of time for anyone who wants a personal website to reinvent the wheel when the client browser could help.
The main issue with that for me is that browsers require organisations to build and maintain, so I think we should always be careful about removing responsibilities from website creators and giving it over to browsers.
I guess the SSG and the browser points are both freedom vs convenience type tradeoffs where everyone has their own personal preference. It's all Web stuff though, so we should probably try keep it all open, flexible and resilient IMO.
I'd just like to clarify that this is not what I was trying to say. In fact, once a website needs server-side programming to support interactivity (comments, subscription, etc.), I don't think SSGs are necessarily better. I think we both agree there to an extent. I think there are tradeoffs.
There is a certain inherent complexity in addressing concerns like performance, portability, etc. that, as waterbed theory suggests, just gets pushed to different places depending on whether we choose an SSG-based solution or non-SSG-based solution. What I have been trying in my other comments is to explain my reasons for why I made the arguably questionable choice to use an SSG for content pages while relying on server side programming for comments and subscriber forms.
I certainly see the appeal of serving the entire site, including both content pages and comment forms, using server side programming. It does simplify the 'architecture' in some ways. However, since I maintain my personal website as a hobby, I need to make the tradeoffs that feel right to me. I realise this is not a very satisfying answer to the question of whether a hybrid solution like mine (SSG plus server side programming) has merits. But I was never trying to argue its merits in the first place.
> However, since I maintain my personal website as a hobby, I need to make the tradeoffs that feel right to me. I realise this is not a very satisfying answer to the question of whether a hybrid solution like mine (SSG plus server side programming) has merits. But I was never trying to argue its merits in the first place.
Hey, I'm a firm believer in the idea that the best solution for a personal website is the one that's the most fun for the owner to maintain! The reminder that it's not all about technical merit makes yours one of the more satisfying answers - thanks again for the considered responses:)
Assuming 500 bytes of metadata + URL per blog post, a one megabyte index is enough for 2000 blog posts.
As already mentioned, you don't generate search result pages, because client side Javascript has been a thing for several decades already.
Your suggestion of converting markdown on every request also provides near zero value.
Writing a minimal server backend is also way easier if you separate it from the presentation part of the stack.
Based on https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46489563, it also seems like you fundamentally misunderstand the point. Interactivity is not the point. SSGs are used for publishing writing the same way PDF is used. Nobody sane thinks that they need a comment section in their PDFs.
Your 1 megabyte index file has just added over 2 seconds to your page load time in 30 different countries based on average internet speeds in 2024. Chuck in some pictures, an external comment library and your other SSG hacks, and you've just made your website practically unresponsive to a quarter of the planet and a bunch of other low powered devices.
Value is relative. The benefit of rendering markdown on every request is it makes it easier to make it dynamic, so you don't need to do SSG compromises like rebuild and reupload multiple pages when a single link changes.
You're replying in my thread here, to my original points. My original points were that SSGs don't make sense for sites with interaction, which is why were were discussing the limitations of SSG search approaches.
> SSGs are used for publishing writing the same way PDF is used. Nobody sane thinks that they need a comment section in their PDFs.
Thank you! We're in agreement, it doesn't make sense to use SSGs for sites that require interaction. When you do, it forces the rest of your site to do the compromising search stuff like we're discussing here.
It might not be intentional (I doubt), but your replies really read like bad faith discourse.
Of course, for my site I just redirect the user to a search engine plus `site:stavros.io`.
You may be interested in Backdrop, which is a maintained fork of Drupal 7.
(No experience with it personally. Only know about it from a friend who uses it.)