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Comment by jstummbillig | Hacker News Reader

> In contrast, Framework laptops has many supposed benefits: they're upgradable, repairable

Why would you propose that the author does not care about these things? They clearly do, they are simply not a single issue voter – and who is, when buying something as complex as a laptop? There is a trade-off and the one that Framework made here is not hitting the mark for the author, and they go into some detail to explain as to why.

I am super excited about Framework stuff: They are clearly getting somewhere with this; it's nicer than anything that came before with comparable repairability. I think it's super plausible that we don't exhaust the physical limitations that arise through repairability before it's so nice, that the trade-off will be negligible for most folks.

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IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for sustainability. If you are doing this I think you are missing the point. This isn't a apples to apples comparison.

I also feel the frustration of the parent, and I also see that many people don't want to pay or consider the ramifications of where we we are at right now in this given time. Most devices are designed to be throwaway, manufactures cut corners, operate at a loss. These are byproducts from our badly designed technology from a suitability perspective that have driven prices down in a unhealthy way IMHO.

Its like trying to compare prices between now and fifty years ago. If you want the world to be more sustainable, you need to consider that its going to cost more, its not going to be comparable to whats out there right now, and you are going to need to deal with the growing pains.

Comparing Framework laptop to whats out there today in terms of features is a losing proposition. The market is built around a lack of sustainability.

> IMHO I think its not helpful to be comparing Framework's price to whats currently on the market. You are paying for sustainability.

But is it really more sustainable to have a poor quality but easily repairable/swappable laptop where you had to exchange multiple parts over e.g. 10 years, compared to a high quality laptop that lasted the full 10 years and didn't need any repairs? And that is not unusual, my 10 year old X1 carbon is still going strong, I just had to take change the battery at some point, but that was not very difficult.

I don't know if I consider Framework laptops poor quality. I wonder if you are considering the impact to the planet though. We have tons of waste everyday from devices that are not built with sustainability in mind. Yes Framework has a ways to go with that, but its the only company that I know thats really doing something about it. We have all these devices that if they are not built around sustainability in contributes to a worse climate and I worry what kind of world we are leaving behind for our children.

This is unfortunately a pure “feels over logic” comment that doesn’t engage with the parent poster’s argument at all. The point is impact, not what anyone has “in mind”.

If you have this mythical laptop that lasts 10 years, let me know. Meanwhile, I don't think the GT 1050m from my 2015 laptop would truly have been that competitive today. And it sure did need several repairs to last the 4-ish years it did get.

I'll admit my bias as a gamer and game dev, though. My industry more or less requires a stronger machine by default and the line shifts quickly. Even my decent GTX 3080m is starting to fall behind a bit. But not as drastically as the Moore's law era.

I am puzzled by the "GT 1050M is not competitive today"? What does that even mean?

You are moving goal posts. Your parent clearly specified long-term stability and lack of repairs. Granted not all laptops are that durable. But many are. I have a pile of old laptops, one I clearly remember using it as a daily driver for development in the interval of 12 to 10 years ago. Just ran it yesterday, wanted to see if I can put it in a homemade computing cluster. Worked fine after being battered with Fold@Home for 12 hours.

You did admit your bias, for which I am grateful. But admitting it or not, let's recognize it's still making people prone to judging from a filter bubble perspective. Barely any dev cares about GPU performance being competitive today. I am a fairly average dev and I and my kind care that the laptop can drive one 4K screen at 60Hz and that's it.

Sure , "sustain" is subjective. If you're sticking to Arch Linux, programming VIM, and browsing docs for 20 years, you'd get more value out of one good base over any potential upgrades. But that doesn't seem to be the world we live in, hardware or software wise. We don't really build laptops like we would fridges, and the former has a lot more moving parts regardless.

>But admitting it or not, let's recognize it's still making people prone to judging from a filter bubble perspective.

Sure. My other opinion to emphasize is that I don't think Framework is trying to aim for the average user. Nor even average dev. If you're questioning why you not buy some $600-1000 range laptop,or why you need a 5090 at all, you 99% don't really need the flexibility of a modular laptop.

On top of that, the average dev could (or at least, used to until recently) also afford a brand new replacement laptop, so they probably aren't as cost conscious nor as specs demanding as a game Dev like me living in a boom bust cycle (and it's pretty bust right). I'm around that time considering an upgrade and I'd much rather throw down $600 to just slap in a new GPU like I would in a desktop, instead of another $2000+.

> If you have this mythical laptop that lasts 10 years, let me know.

I have 5.

Thinkpads. X220 i5, X220 i7, T420 i5, T420 i7, W520 quad core i7.

All maxed out or nearly, all in regular use. All nearly 15Y old.

The ?20 range was the last Thinkpad series with good keyboards. That's why I stocked up.

What's the measure we're using to define quality?

I would say durability. HN is obsessed by e-waste so pointing out that something can last 7+ years wins some over. Not being sarcastic, nor am I mocking anyone, I am stating an observation.

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