Don’t Work for Assholes | Hacker News Reader

Don’t Work for Assholes

powazek.com

146 pointsdanw64 comments

More generally, don't have dealings with assholes. Don't work for them, don't hire them, don't have them as cofounders, don't take investment from them.

One of the things I always ask speakers at YC is what they know now that they didn't know when they were 25. The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people. When you run into a person who's bad news, there's often a little voice inside you saying "watch out." When you're young, you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary.

Does this extend to not selling your product to, or marketing to, assholes? I can see "don't have assholes as repeat/contract-based clients" as obvious, but what about "don't have assholes as one-time customers?" If you never have to deal with them again, does it matter?

I can think of two exceptions that support the rule:

Very impersonal transactions: say you're running a kiosk, and a guy comes up to buy a candy bar, and you recognize him from college, but know he's an asshole. You can still sell him that candy bar.

Smaller of two assholes: there will be times when you will have to deal with an asshole to avoid an even bigger asshole. Then it's fine; it's a life skill to be able to deal with difficult people.

Yes, it's ok to have assholes as customers. One of the great things about the seller-customer relationship is that it's proof against that.

When you have asshole customers, it's usually possible to turn them by being really nice to them. This doesn't seem to be the case with bosses. So that is another great thing about the seller-customer relationship.

I think the key is that there is no authority mixed into it. Assholes and authority are a bad combination.

I think it could work out as long as you know what you are willing to accept. If somebody demands a discount from you, just tell them no. If somebody you up demanding that you drop everything to work on their problem right then, just let them know that you are concerned about their problem, when you except to try and deal with it, and quickly cut the conversation short.

As long as you deal with them in a way that is acceptable to you, you have lost almost nothing selling them a product once if they treat you badly. And you have gained some money, and as PG said if you treat them fairly and very nicely, they might change.

"When you're young, you feel like you should ignore it, because it seems so arbitrary."

Of course different people will ignore this intuitive feeling for different reasons, but I suspect that people rarely do so because it feels arbitrary. Usually people tolerate mean behaviour because there is an asymmetry of power in a relationship. When you need someone more than they need you, they can make harsh demands and treat you like dirt and you will still cooperate. If people refused to cooperate with assholes, or imposed a cost on assholish behaviour then it would stop or be reduced. The fact there are so many giant assholes walking around suggests that being an asshole works, at least sometimes.

I don't think there's anything magical about these instincts. If you observe someone treating another person badly, it's entirely reasonable to imagine that they will do the same to you.

> The fact there are so many giant assholes walking around suggests that being an asshole works, at least sometimes.

So how do we raise the costs of being an Asshole?

I'm asking this from a serious, hacking-the-monkeyware perspective.

public exposure / abandonment

Break out the back of the envelope and calculate how much it would cost you to break all contacts with anuses. Is it worth it? Make sure people find out how you were treated.

A guy I respect much for his technical skills wanted to go in with me a very interesting and technically challenging project in vison / imaging. Even though I have always been on friendly terms with this person with good rapport, and actually enjoy talking tech stuff with him - I refused just because of the way I have seen him treat other people. There was lots of vindictiveness, a tendency toward feuding. I didn't want to risk being involved with that no matter how interesting the work.

if you must deal with aholes or if you are unsure if a person is an ahole keep the stakes low. don't be an ahole yourself, and of course, most people aren't aholes.

If no one worked for/hired them, it would raise the cost. Of course, you would have to tell them why you made the decision you did. I think a lot of assholes don't know that they are one. Jeez... I hope I'm not an asshole.

It's bigger than you.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/why-women-really-d...

So how do we raise the costs of being an Asshole?

Increase the rate at which reputation spreads between people.

This is actually one of the goals of YC. Historically investors have often behaved like assholes to founders. But if someone maltreats a YC startup, 300 people know about it. Most investors sense this and try to at least act upstanding.

I was talking to a YC founder recently who's working on a fairly fragile idea, in the sense that it's both good and easily copyable at this stage. He was worried that if he talked to VCs about it, they might encourage someone to copy it. I could honestly tell him "they wouldn't dare."

I think a lot of assholes actually try to create that power balance (or at least the illusion of that situation) in their relationships & make it inot a central issue in the relationship.

I learned this the hard way. The really hard way. :(

> The most common answer is probably to trust their instincts about people.

A couple questions about this:

* Do they offer any advice on how to hone this instinct? I'm assuming they still get false positives; do they know of any traits/behaviors that seem to go either way, and ways to gauge which way those traits are more likely to tend?

* On the same thought as the previous question, do they think their 25 year old selves would've made the right instinctual call in recent encounters they've had? I ask because of the possibility of a hindsight bias. It seems possible that along with learning to trust their instinct more, they've had more data to train their instinct.

It seems like its a requirement for C-level positions. There's some research to back up my impression:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0767915828

Nice piece, great sentiment, except the very dangerous: "Nine times out of ten, the first impression someone gives you is exactly who they are."

Not true! Had a partner embezzle money from my company who seemed like a really nice guy. Most people can be charismatic and polite for even a year at a time before their true colors come out. To get a real idea about someone, you need to get to know their character. The more important someone is to your future success, the more you need to really investigate their past relationships and see how they acted after the infatuation was over.

Right. A bad first impression is a bad sign. The reverse (A good first impression) is not necessarily the case.

Especially in a situation where the prospective client should be on his best behavior.

I think you can easily make mistakes judging people in both directions. It's just that making a false negative error (not identifying an asshole) can turn out a lot worse than a false positive (judging somebody as an asshole who really isn't) so it's prudent to be sensitive to bad first impressions.

Agreed. But, for those who might be looking to this thread for advice on how to detect assholes as early as possible, know the difference between prudence and cynicism. Be cautious, but don't start out assuming that someone's good impression is just a facade, otherwise the entire rest of that relationship will be tainted by that.

It also doesn't hurt to go back later and try to understand why you had the gut feeling that the person is an asshole. Knowing what sort of cognitive biases you may have, either from instinct or socialization, will likely help the false positive rate. And the more you are considerate about things, the less you might be likely to come off as a prejudicial asshole to someone else.

Definitely. My girlfriend made the comment to me a couple of days ago, that she overwhelmingly finds people she initially judges as mean or rude often turn out to be lovely people, and those she initially judges as nice people often turn out to be heavily flawed.

Personally, my snap judgements seem to be pretty reliable. Many times I've taken an instant disliking to someone, while other in the social group found the opposite, when months or years later the person will confirm my suspicions by involving themselves in some big scandal or something.

I think knowing when and when not to trust your intuition is a big part of the intuitive process.

Excellent observation.

If I believed first impressions, I wouldn't have found many of my closest friends.

...especially since most of them don't have English as a primary language.

The 10th time out of 10 is the guy who doesn't seem like an asshole, but probably is.

"Nine times out of ten, the first impression someone gives you is exactly who they are. We choose not to see it because we need the money, or we want the situation to be different."

That reminds me of the worst job I ever had.

I went into the interview really, really wanting the position (from the outside, they looked like they were doing some amazing things).

I got there, was underwhelmed by the person I talked to, and despite my misgivings, took the job exactly because I wanted it to be something it was not.

Huge mistake.

There are a lot of people who do great work who are complete assholes in person. They didn't get to be great at what they do by being polite or tolerant of crappy work. If they think that you are mediocre or are doing low-quality work they won't hesitate to let you know this. At first, this left me humiliated and angry. Other people lost their motivation and quit. Now I actually respect not having every criticism sugar-coated in a thick shell of polite double-talk. I'm so used to asshole behavior it doesn't really bother me anymore. I regard this to be a strength. If it doesn't kill you... I just hope it hasn't made me into too much of an asshole.

As for haggling over payment? Well in the real world you're going to have to be tough in negotiations demand what you want and follow-up to get it. This is probably the least excusable asshole behaviour of those mentioned.

I don't regard that type of behavior as a strength at all.

There are also lots of people who do great work that are not complete assholes in person. They have the same intolerance for crappy work and same ability to give feedback as assholes, but are able to do it in a way that doesn't leave the other party feeling humiliated and angry.

It's not hard to be direct and explicit about what you want without being an asshole. It's just that the assholes don't bother. That's why they're assholes. :)

Okay maybe we mean different things - when I talk to people who complain that a boss or coworker is treating them like an asshole, when I ask for more details I find that by "asshole behavior" they just mean that they are being direct and explicit in their criticism. Hell, I've spoken with people who think that any critical comment is asshole behavior. I don't see how it's possible to be direct and explicit in criticism without offending some people. I've gotten called out on bad work before and it's painful, but without this feedback it's difficult to improve.

A good friend of mine thinks that their advisor is an asshole because if they aren't there on the weekend running their experiment their advisor will come in and do it. Now I agree that this is borderline jerk behavior / micromanagement, but what do you do if you hire someone that doesn't work to your standards? Leave the machines idle?

It feels like we're talking about two different things in your two posts. In the first, I thought you were saying "people have been assholes to me before but I learned to deal with it because they were giving me feedback that I ultimately appreciated even though they left me feeling angry and humiliated."

My point above was that being able to give constructive criticism is a strength, but giving people feedback that makes them feel "angry and humiliated" is not. There are lots of people that give feedback and do it in a constructive way without being an asshole, and it's not that hard to do.

Your second post above seems to be more about people who can't take criticism regardless of how it's given and your friend's boss, the micro-manager.

I certainly agree that you can't always be direct and constructive without offending some people. Some people are just not ready to to hear what they need to hear, and in some cases the criticism might be unjustified.

In either case, you're better off giving your feedback in a way that doesn't belittle the other person. The other person may not agree with what you are telling them, but at least you haven't added insult to injury by humiliating them in the process.

I at least try to follow the rule that you should never criticise people in front of others. I've met people who seem to be able to criticise others without humiliating them and there seem to be at least two principles

(1) do it in private

(2) convince people that they thought of whatever you were criticising them about

So... how long have you been at Apple?

I too worked for an asshole, but not in the freelance capacity but as an employee. The worst part was he would recognize that he was an asshole and apologize all the time, only to go back to being an asshole soon after.

I always wanted to tell him that recognizing that you're an asshole and not breaking the behavior was worse than someone who's an asshole and doesn't know it.

I am, admittedly, one of those assholes. I don't characterize myself as rude (I keep my mouth closed when I chew, I stay away from others and doorways when I smoke, I hold doors open for people).

But, if you get in a conversation with me, I will take control. I tend to talk over people to get my point across (although I don't care whether you agree with me or not, not in an attempt to convince) and I tend to talk to much.

Lately, the past 3 months, I have walked away from many conversations thinking, "Damn, I didn't let them say anything. What an asshole."

Working on changing it - guess I just get caught up in the discussion.

Have you tried Ritalin?

I tend to be the same way, and I think that simply having an awareness that you're dominating the conversation is a big first step. What are some techniques that you use to stop yourself from stomping over everybody else, at least verbally?

My primary focus, for the time, has just been to not start talking until there is a breaking point in the conversation. I find that is what drives people up the wall the most - when they can't finish a thought because I am interjecting.

As I think on it, this has been a recent development. I wonder if it stems from my daughter starting to talk a year ago. My life has become a cloud of "uh uh", "yeah", "allright!" and generally sounding excited about completely unstimulating conversation. When I can have a discussion with someone that challenges me, it's very exciting and usually the highlight of my day.

I'm in a similar boat -- I'll happily be an asshole to those on the other side of the line, wherever I draw it. Usually it's in defense of someone I know, but that's all a matter, again of where I draw that line.

But yeah, I can really be an asshole in those situations. On the bright side, fear of being an asshole has made me learn some pretty good negotiation/people skillz.

Put a mark on your hand, in some way that you glance at it often, and remember to listen. Everyday, keep doing it. Has worked for me for breaking "bad habits".

Competent + Nice = Best Combination

Competent + Asshole = I'll put up with them

Incompetent + Nice = I'll hold their hand

Incompetent + Asshole = You've got to be kidding

Someone should make a "Co-Worker Punnett Square" with these options. But which traits are dominant and which are recessive? ;)

Actually, since we're talking about traits/phenotypes (instead of genotypes), this would be a truth table, not a Punnett square ;)

What if Incompetent + Nice never becomes Competent + Nice and they hold the same position that you do?

Although this model can apply to anyone, I was originally referring to clients.

If you have a client who is Incompetent + Nice and never becomes Competent + Nice, then either you need to do a better job of hand holding, or you may just have to settle for steady revenue that you have to work for. Either way, you both win.

Reminds me of H-B situational leadership theory (with the client analogous to one's "followers", and "willingness to perform" analogous to assholery; see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hersey-Blanchard_situational_th...) You want a client in the R4 or R2 performance readiness level, are willing to put up with an R3, and don't want to deal with R1s (no one does; unlike R1 employees, R1 clients aren't worth the investment.)

"Competent + Asshole = I'll put up with them"

I disagree here. These guys can really screw you over. Having to watch your back all the time is stressful and distracting.

Two points:

1. Definition: crackhead - n. - A person who's actually very nice and supportive, but ends up treating you terribly anyway. E.g. terrible organization, constantly panicking over nothing, etc.

Avoid crackheads. Just leave them be.

2. I believe Competent Assholes can be dealt with if you've got a good contract

You know, eventually someone's going to make some DnD style cards for different kinds of bosses. Would be great if someone made these for VCs :-)

The one question that's not really answered there is, what if you can't afford not to work for said asshole? In these recession times, sometimes you may really not have a choice. "I just really need the money" is a valid statement in some circumstances.

The other things he mentions (like the bullet-proof contract, money in advance, and established deliverables) are a good way to protect yourself if you MUST work for an asshole.

Well, if you can't afford not to, you can't afford not to. Period.

The author is simply stating that of all of the variables you control in choosing clientele, making sure they aren't assholes should be near the top of the list. It's a better choice to take a lower-paying gig with a reasonable person than twice your rate with an impossible client.

In these recession times, or in any other times, it can be difficult to tell the difference between really not having a choice, and seeming to not have a choice because of the internalization of the same platitudes one hears repeated incessantly. Needing the money is a valid concern, but as I am reminded of almost constantly by those around me, don't confuse a legitimate need for the money with the social pressure of remaining at one's current lifestyle masquerading as a need. Image and social class are not the only thing worth being concerned about, especially if worrying about them doesn't get you closer to being happy.

Really, I think far more people work for assholes than honestly are trapped doing so.

Also, your second thought reminded me of this thread earlier yesterday: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=462338. The author's philosophy seems to be to assume the other person is an asshole, until they prove otherwise. This thread advocates what almost seems like the opposite viewpoint; that if one assumes everyone is a dishonest shyster, it is actually worse for business than not assuming so and just dealing with getting burned a few times.

"don't confuse a legitimate need for the money with the social pressure of remaining at one's current lifestyle masquerading as a need."

That's not only a problem in people that are self-employed, and it is a very big obstacle to people feeling happy. When it comes to 'need' it is surprising how few things you really need.

That sounds good in theoretical terms. Sounds just fine.

Live it, though, and you may change your mind. For instance, when that "lifestyle" you speak of means giving your child a decent upbringing in a reasonable neighborhood -- I'll work for an asshole to protect that, sorry.

I have you guys to thank for getting this on the front page, and for Derek Powazek for writing this. I listened to my inner voice today after having read this post a few days ago ... a potential client that was nickel-and-diming me on scope and price on a fixed project sent over PSD's to be sliced and produced. Scope was - front-end work and interaction design, no back end. So when I asked him about a contact form he wanted written and whether they were prepared with a php script, or something, to post TO ... he got huffy and asked -

"ARE YOU A PROGRAMMER OR WHAT?! YOU SAID YOU WERE A PROGRAMMER"

... orly?

After telling him his tone was inappropriate and disrespectful I told him we wouldn't be working together.

his response? "OK" /hangs up

Haha - goodbye asshole! It was nice not working for you!

This includes managers at s/w companies as well. My department at bigCo was just re-organized, and I have a new boss.

At our first one-on-one meeting, he casually mentioned that he was 'not a micro-manager'. This immediately caught my attention - when a manager says this, they invariably turn out to be micro-managers.

Since then, I have had to report my status 3 times a week, and he writes detailed emails laying out how I should do my job. As far as I can tell, he is like this with all of his reports.

Needless to say, I'm seriously considering quitting. I recently got my green card, so freelance work is now an option....

Have you considered telling your new boss how you feel about his management style? It may be possible to improve the situation.

Wow. I have to report status 3 times a day! I want to quit as soon as I can, but I always thought this frquency was the norm not the exception.Are you saying majority of the big co bosses ask you for status less than 3 times a week?

At my last job, we had biweekly status meetings that sometimes slipped to once a month?

I have to barely report once a week.... but this certainly isn't BigCo as far as number of employees go.

Sounds like good advice to me. Life's too short....

One minor bit that got me wondering though. He talks about a "bullet proof contract", anyone else here doing freelancing use a contract? I've not ever used one and wouldn't really feel right doing so. Also I wonder how possible it is to get one that really is bullet proof... Anyone with experiences to share?

If you don't use a contract, you have no protection when a client refuses to pay. Also, legally, the client does not own your work until you assign it to them. A contract covers both parties.

I just finished listening to the Design View podcast yesterday. Andy covers this topic in a few of the shows. Unfortunately he only did 8 shows in 2007, but they are all quite good.

http://show.andyrutledge.com/

Yea I have learned this lesson myself, it's true. I think a lot of the time it costs you more to do the work than to walk away.

Best advice I've ever gotten:

"Doesn't matter where you are or what you are doing, just who you are with."

That one hasn't let me down yet.

I would like to see the bullet-proof contract.

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