Clearly power capacity cost (scaling compressors/expanders and related kit) and energy storage cost (scaling gasbags and storage vessels) are decoupled from one another in this design; are there any numbers publicly available for either?
As far as the storage vessel, CO2 has much lower pressure demands than something like, say, hydrogen. On something like a paintball marker the burst disc (i.e. emergency blow off valve) for a CO2 tank is in the range of of 1500-1800PSI [0].
A compressed air tank that has a 62cubic inch, 3000PSI capacity, will have a circumference of 29cm and a length close to 32.7cm, compared to a 20oz CO2 tank that has a circumfrence of 25.5cm and a length of around 26.5cm [1]. The 20oz tank also weighs about as much 'filled' as the Compressed air tank does empty (although compressed air doesn't weigh much, just being through here).
And FWIW, that 62/3000 compressed air vs 20oz CO2 comparison... the 20oz of CO2 will almost certainly give you more 'work' for a full tank. When I was in the sport you needed more like a 68/4500 tank to get the same amount of use between fills.
Due to CO2's lower pressures and overall behavior, it's way cheaper and easier to handle parts of this; I'm willing to bet the blowoff valve setup could in fact even direct back to the 'bag' in this case, since the bag can be designed pessimistically for the pressure of CO2 under the thermal conditions. [2]
I think the biggest 'losses' will be in the energy around re-liquifying the CO2, but if the system is closed loop that's not gonna be that bad IMO. CO2's honestly a relatively easy and as long as working in open area or with a fume hood relatively safe gas to work with, so long as you understand thermal rules around liquid state [also 2] and use proper safety equipment (i.e. BOVs/burst discs/etc.)
[0] - I know there are 3k PSI burst discs out there but I've never seen one that high on a paintball CO2 tank...
[1] - I used the chart on this page as a reference: https://www.hkarmy.com/products/20oz-aluminum-co2-paintball-...
[2] - Liquid CO2 does not like rapid thermal changes or sustained extreme heat; This is when burst discs tend to go off. But it also does not work nearly as well in cold weather, especially below freezing. Where this becomes an issue is when for one reason or another liquid CO2 gets into the system. This can be handled in an industrial scenario with proper design I think tho.
I remember wondering about using natural gas or propane for this a long time ago. Not burning the gas but using it as a compressed gas battery. It liquifies easier than air, etc., but would be a big fire risk if there were leaks while this is not.
Seems neat.
FWIW Back in the day, Ammonia was used for refrigeration because it had the right properties for that process; I mention that one because while it's not a fire risk it's definitely a health risk, also it's a bit more reactive (i.e. leaks are more likely to happen)
> Seems neat.
Agreed!
With compressed air, you just release the air back to the atmosphere.
The issue with compressed air is that you have to build more of the system to handle higher pressures and/or have a more robust regulator design, plus the pressures required to compress CO2 back to liquid are typically lower than what you'd need to store a useful final volume compressed air...
Also, As far as having an 'open loop' (i.e. venting to atmosphere), that's typically got it's own problems, mostly that when you need new air you have to make sure it's 'pure', not just things like dust but even whether there's water vapor.
It’ll be interesting to see how the economics of these various solutions play out.
Batteries or direct mechanical storage (compressed gas, pumped hydro, etc.) are both a lot more efficient.
This would make sense if solar gets so cheap that it's something to do with the surplus, and it would be a way to electrify things like long haul aviation where batteries are too heavy. We are flying LNG rockets, so LNG planes are totally possible, or you could upgrade methane to butane or propane which are quite easy to compress to liquid form. Jet engines run great on light weight fuels like that.
>cm
>oz
The 75% round-trip efficiency (for shorter time periods) quoted in other threads here is surprisingly high though.
It’d be interesting to see if there’s any loss of efficiency with increasing storage duration too (relating to boil-off of the cryogenic side of the storage ?) because this would impact the economics of charging too.
I just get the feeling lithium/sodium ion for electricity and big piles of sand/dirt for heat are going to more-or-less win the energy storage race.
> If the worst happens and the dome is punctured, 2,000 tonnes of CO2 will enter the atmosphere. That’s equivalent to the emissions of about 15 round-trip flights between New York and London on a Boeing 777. “It’s negligible compared to the emissions of a coal plant,” Spadacini says. People will also need to stay back 70 meters or more until the air clears, he says.
So it's really just about enabling solar etc.
Trees are literally CO2 based solar batteries: they take CO2 + solar energy and store it as hydrocarbons and carbohydrates for later use. Every time you're sitting by a campfire you're feeling heat from solar energy. How much better does it get that free energy storage combined with CO2 scrubbing from the atmosphere!
When you look at the ocean, it's able to absorb 20-30% of all human caused CO2 emissions all with no effort on our behalf.
Unfortunately, these two solution are, apparently, "too good to be true" because we're increasingly reducing the ability of both to remove carbon. Parts of the Amazon are not net emitters of CO2 [0] and the ocean has limits to how much CO2 it can absorb before it starts reach its limit and become dangerously too acidic for ocean life.
0. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/jul/14/amazon-r...