HTMX Sucks
> Another practical reason not to use htmx is that there are, rounding off, zero htmx jobs.
> I just did a search for htmx jobs on indeed and found a grand total of two: one at Microsoft and one at Oak Ridge National Laboratory.
> A search for “react”, on the other hand, gives 13,758 jobs.
> Seriously, developer, which of these two technologies do you want to hitch your career to?
I do not advocated for htmx; but this take is so bad!
Resume-driven development should not be a thing. If you are a professional developer, building a product for a user, your primary concern should not be the job market for when you quit the company you are working for, but rather making the best product possible for the user within the context of the current company. And if the product is such that it does not call for react, or some other javascript-rich client, then you shouldn't use it however many react jobs there may be on Indeed.
(In all seriousness, this entire article is facetious and is highlighting the strengths of HTMX. They are not sincerely advocating for 'resume driven development'.)
Pretend this is not about library choice, but rather about language choice. One language has 2 jobs, and the other language 13k jobs. I doubt you'd think for more than a second.
The Hacker News website runs on Lisp. How many jobs do you see on the market that ask for Lisp? And yet, for what it is, this site is amazing! I don't see them rushing to migrate to a python backend and a react-based frontend, no matter how many jobs there are for those.
In other words, HN does not have the problem that you are going to have if you use an unpopular language for your project.
If you choose LISP for your not-HN project, then you have a problem. The chances are very slim of finding any experienced LISP devs who are also in your salary range, within commute distance, want to work on your project, are a good fit for the team, etc.
You're probably going to have to hire a dev who is a good match on all those other things and train them up on LISP. Unless they've had experience with other functional languages (not that unusual, but not common either) then they're going to have to learn an entire new paradigm. All of which means that they'll spend the first six months going slow while they learn, and needing support from the rest of the team.
And you'll need to convince them to join you (probably by paying them more money) because if they spend a few years on your project learning LISP, they probably won't be able to use those skills for their next gig, and their current skills in a popular language will go out of date.
LISP is a great language, and if used well it will probably give you an advantage over the competition using other, more mundane, languages. But is that going to be enough of an advantage to counteract your slower onboarding, higher salaries, and greater recruitment workload?
It's a list of articles and comments. It would take like 3 pages from W3Schools to build this thing.
Firstly, because this site happily handles the amount of traffic that puts many hobbyist sites that happen to get on its front page into a hug of death; so its developers must have done something right on the backend that is probably above the web programming 101 level.
But secondly, because this was precisely my point. One does not need a super popular front-end framework to make an awesome web product, and the HackerNews site is a testament to that.
No you're not. You're just trying to respond with something witty.
It's a message board with 1% of the functionality most sites people are building with frameworks.
> Firstly, because this site happily handles the amount of traffic that puts many hobbyist sites that happen to get on its front page into a hug of death;
Lol are you really implying it's hard to scale a message board?
> One does not need a super popular front-end framework to make an awesome web product, and the HackerNews site is a testament to that.
IT'S A MESSAGE BOARD. Nobody is building message boards anymore. Using HN as an example for anything other than building a dirt simple message boardsays more about your refusal to recognize the need to these new technologies than it does about those technologies.
> awesome web product
A. Message. Board.
I am implying that it is beyond the "3 pages from W3Schools", as you put it.
> A. Message. Board.
Yes. A fast, reliable, accessible message board that I and many others thoroughly enjoy. An awesome product.
Again, I have never suggested that its ui is complex. In fact, it's glorious how simple it is. This is the point that those htmx people make: use simple tools for simple UIs; and also, try to make your UIs simple.
NO. IT. ISN'T.
lol. Anytime React is mentioned people like you rush in to tell others just how great stuff like...checks notes...a message board is. As if it in any, way, shape or form adds to the conversation.
You just couldn['t help yourself from rushing in to defend the simplest site on the planet (lol written in LISP) as if it demonstrates anything other than some rando building a w3 schools site in a language no one uses anymore.
This 'simplest site on the planet' does the job that it is tasked to do. Brilliantly. I am baffled by why you would scorn at simplicity.
> as if it demonstrates anything
It demonstrates that a great product (a product that many people use and love) can be built with simple tools. At least on the frontend.
You mean the message board? The website that has a grand total of 2 functions: post and comment?
> And yet, for what it is, this site is amazing!
It's 2 colors and text. That's it.
> ! I don't see them rushing to migrate to a python backend and a react-based frontend, no matter how many jobs there are for those.
It's A MESSAGE BOARD. A. MESSAGE. BOARD.
Have you seen how many blog or portfolio sites people build with react? Sometimes even adding nextjs into the mix? Blogs!
What is this an objection to? If you follow this thread upwards, where was it suggested that we should be talking about things so complex that nobody, or only very few, could build? The whole pitch of htmx is that it is proposed for building things that anybody could build. The article in the title assumes that the target audience isn't building Google Docs, Figma, video editors, or CAD tools.
> How many jobs do you see on the market that ask for Lisp? And yet, for what it is, this site is amazing! I don't see them rushing to migrate to a python backend and a react-based frontend, no matter how many jobs there are for those.
You pointing out that the dumb simple message board is written in LISP and doesn't need anymore more is a bit absurd.
No shit they aren't rushing to upgrade it. IT BARELY DOES ANYTHING TO BEGIN WITH.
Anytime a certain class of developer see the word "React" that end up saying the most ridiculous shit. Nobody, I mean nobody, thinks HN is a site worthy of replicating or achieving unless they're part of the .0000002% who couldn't find a prepackaged board from Google search results.
Wait what? You haven't seen all the hackernews clones that people make as an exercise of website building? You haven't seen lobste.rs?
All of those hacker news clones are by Hacker News people for Hacker News people, usually to implement features Hacker News never will.
Nobody outside of the HN community is holding up Hacker News as an exemplar of superior design or engineering, much less of a Lisp implementation. Anyone who's touched the Arc Lisp forum code knows how few fucks pg gave about the design of anything but the language itself. And still the original forum was so inefficient it would keel over and die under moderate traffic and internal links would time out and people's comments would just never post.
The other language - HTML - has over 30,000 jobs
I feel like only a backend developer trying to score "gotcha" points could make this argument and be confident about it.
You mean a real developer?
- How easy is it to hire people with experience in this?
- Relatedly, how easy will it be for the org to maintain this software after I (or the original team) leaves?
When NoRedInk switched to Elm, Richard Feldman, who was asked about whether this impacted their hiring experience in any negative way, said that on the contrary, hiring had never been better, because although the pool of candidates grew smaller, their quality (either prior experience of working with type-safe functional programming languages, or enthusiasm for learning them) got higher.
When Alex Russell announced several openings at Microsoft for development of design systems with web components, and certainly no react, he said this attracted a lot of really strong candidates.
I am not saying that a good web developer should be able to pick up any exotic language, such as elm, or purescript, or rescript, or clojurescript at no time; but what I am saying is that as far as web frameworks are concerned, they shouldn't be a criterion for hiring, and are unlikely to become an obstacle to it.
And the frameworks are churned continuously and are also bug-ridden nightmares, so that continuous development and support is needed to keep websites functioning and secure.
Any reduction in framework complexity threatens the whole edifice.
Reality is often disappointing. I'd love to be working deep in my Vulkan rendering knowledge, but it's clear right now with my lack of job that I need to grind leetcode instead and work on personal projects first. Graphics programming is already such a stiff bar to get into and it's only gotten stiffer as I go along.
I'm going a little bit on a limb by also cultivating Rust, so I'm not optimizing my RDD. But I still looked for a compromise of what I like and what's in demand.
Survival is more important.
On the other hand htmx is nice to have, if it solves your problem. Still you should use what benefits you in the context of a customer.
If you ask me, I think the web is for viewing static content, download content, or share links that your browser should delegate to an app.