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Comment by furyg3 | Hacker News Reader

Are there any good robo-vacuum cleaners that will still clean your floor if the internet is down?

I've had my Miele vacuum cleaner for 15 years now, and I bought it second hand. I can still buy bags and filters for it, and when the floor roller piece broke (something heavy fell on it) I was able to buy a replacement one for cheap. I see no reason why it can't go another 10 years.

It feels like a very low probability that a robo-cleaner I buy now will come from a company that (in 10+ years) will a) exist and b) support 10+ year old vacuum cleaners.

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I used Valetudo on my early Roborock model and it worked great for many years. Unfortunately, the battery gave out and it's somehow DRMed, so even though everything else works fine, the vacuum refuses to work because it doesn't like the new battery.

It's the worst kind of e-waste, it's only waste because someone decided I should buy a whole new vacuum when the battery dies, but Valetudo is otherwise good. Just never try to look for support at all.

This stuff should flat-out be illegal.

I think it now is, in the EU. Still trying to figure out whether I can salvage this vacuum...

Please blog about it if you can, success or not!Also, I hope John Deer won't succeed with their attacks on the Right to Repair in US nor EU

Oh boy the creator of valetudo sure has an abrasive writing style. Whatever works for him, I guess.

It's too bad because it's such a great project otherwise. He puts a ton of free labour into the system and I'm sure he's dealt with some entitled users but it's really a huge reason I don't recommend it to more people. Actively telling people they must learn to solder and making the only support channel on telegram are two big turn-offs for a lot of people.

This is absolutely his right and perhaps his intention to keep the project small, but in that case I wish there was another alternative vacuum firmware project.

Did you look inside the old battery? It may well be just a bunch of 18650 cells with some electronics in a plastic case. Just desolder the old cells and solder on new ones.

I did the same for my wife's cordless vacuum, and it works better than new, because the new cells are about 2x the capacity of the originals.

Lets go with the usual reminder: de-soldering / soldering Li-ion cells can be super dangerous. With a bit too much of heat it can fire or even explode...

It doesn't quite explode. Instead it shoots out a super hot flame that is nearly impossible to put out.

Imagine having a blowtouch that you can't extinguish or touch which is likely rolling around.

That sounds exactly like one of the kinds of deflagration (aka low-speed explosion) that seems worthwhile to discourage people from invoking.

"Hey, the worst case is that you get jets of super-hot flames that are impossible to extinguish!"

Hobbyists should buy cells with pre-welded tabs. You solder onto the tabs, not the cell terminals.

Don't solder lithium cells, even if it goes well you'll ruin them. You need a spot welder.

This is only good advice if you're good at soldering and know details about cells like which ones have in-built protection.

Otherwise you're just creating a fire hazard.

Luckily, I do happen to know that stuff, so I used the existing board with brand new 18650 cells. Unfortunately, the board seemed to brick itself when it lost power, so the vacuum kept complaining the battery wasn't kosher.

I don't think you'll ever find a battery pack using cells with integrated low-voltage protection, if that's what you're referring to. All that stuff is managed by the BMS. What you should be on the look-out for is the cell's operating range, continuous and max power. Personally I use buy VT6's in bulk and never think about any of that.

>This is only good advice if you're good at soldering

I meant soldering onto the pre-welded tabs that come with the new cell (unless you have a spot welder). You don't need much soldering experience for that.

>and know details about cells like which ones have in-built protection.

It's highly unlikely that the individual cells would be protected ones. Manufacturers are not stupid to pay N times the cost of a management circuit.

I did. Still, DRM.

DRM feels like conjecture. You admitted to working on it, it's also possible you broke it / didn't hook it up correctly?

Maybe, but I also know how to measure voltages, and everything was fine.

Except, I guess: It didn't work, so it wasn't fine.

I mean, if you want to think I broke it, you're free to. The fact remains that my battery connections were correct, the voltages were right, but the vacuum didn't work with either the battery I made or the new one I bought.

For me it's so weird nobody makes a thing you can trust. I would happily overpay 3-4x for the good vacuum without the cloud and the need to do some hacking with valetudo, with an official service and support for the device. Yet nobody is willing to take the money. They'd rather go bankrupt..

> I would happily overpay 3-4x for the good vacuum without the cloud and the need to do some hacking with valetudo, with an official service and support for the device. Yet nobody is willing to take the money. They'd rather go bankrupt..

I feel like you are over estimating market demand based on your own preferences. Been there, done that. Most techies under estimate how little normal folks care about privacy, cybersecurity and stuff like that.

The market for privacy focused vacuum robots (at a significant premium) is probably not even going to pay for the injection mould tooling

> Most techies under estimate how little normal folks care about privacy, cybersecurity and stuff like that.

Most techies vastly overestimate how much money most people have available for nice-to-haves like privacy, cybersecurity and stuff like that.

this. Thank goodness i'm a broke phd student.

Maybe I should buy some broke phd students for vacuuming then. Perhaps take their phones while they work, so that they aren't connected to the cloud.

>Most techies under estimate how little normal folks care about privacy, cybersecurity and stuff like that.

No, we just think that this security nightmare should be regulated, and companies should be forced to keep sane security standards and not abuse data gathered from users.. and there's this weird idea of owning thing you were sold, i know - its' a bit weird.

Just like when you go buy some food you don't have to think if it is safe to eat.

Unfortunately, companies prioritize profits over everything else, and sometimes that is at the expense of what should be the morally right thing to do. They can only be pursuaded against this by regulation, which they're also in a position to influence at their will. To say nothing about the usual government incompetence and tech illiteracy, which is another factor for technology products specifically.

And then you add the point GP was making, which is that regulation only happens when citizens demand it, and it is politically favorable. The extremely low percentage of the market that demands privacy and security, coupled with everything else, means that these things rarely if ever happen.

>No, we just think that this security nightmare should be regulated, and companies should be forced to keep sane security standards and not abuse data gathered from users.

But that is orthogonal to the goals of many governments, as I'm sure they have access to most of them either by official or unofficial channels/backdoors.

> Most techies under estimate how little normal folks care about privacy, cybersecurity and stuff like that.

Exactly. Everyone I’ve talked to about my own robot vacuum (which is using Valetudo, so not phoning home to China) just kind of shrugs and says “who cares if audio and video inside my house are being piped to China, I don’t do anything interesting, what use would they have for it?” This also applies to other consumer electronics that do similar things.

They just can’t conceptualize that _in aggregate_ all this mundane information can be wielded by bad actors for their own gains. Which is funny, because they certainly have strong opinions about how Facebook et al are being used to push misinformation.

Mine doesnt need cloud or internet. AIRROBO P20

Yeah. The real options are usually: a Chinese device from a company that seems nebulously a little close to their government, imported (so, limited need to follow local safety or privacy regulation); or, a US product from a company with explicit connections to the Google/Facebook/Amazon network, and with a warranty that lasts a whole month (as long as you don’t open the battery hatch).

I don’t know if people would pay 3X for something that actually works in their interest, probably not, but it isn’t as if such a product has been tried in the last ~50 years.

> Yet nobody is willing to take the money.

It’s weird that you have identified this business opportunity with such confidence, but you are also unwilling to take the money.

As it is so easy to start a mass production of vacuum cleaners, yes. Give me a week in my garage. TBH I have zero idea where I should go to start a business of such scale even if I have a 100% zero-risk shot which is never the case. Not everybody has an MBA, some of us just code stuff.

>I would happily overpay 3-4x for the good vacuum without the cloud a

Those wall-to-wall advertising packed smart TVs that cost $350 for a 65" outsell the $1500 65" 10 to 1.

People love low prices. Their concerns about privacy are a distant second or even third (after aesthetics).

For what it's worth I never connected my 5-years-old Xiaomi Mi to the Internet - I just push the button and it starts. A wheel stopped working this year but I bought the replacement and installed it without much fuzz.

As for modern vacuums I have no idea what happens if you never set up their WiFi.

Your best bet would be to check which models are supported by Valetudo, which is a local-only firmware replacement: https://valetudo.cloud/ and https://github.com/Hypfer/Valetudo

valetudo is just a hack, not a firmware replacement, and could be blocked by a firmware update from the OEM

plus it can void your warranty

> plus it can void your warranty

Unless you happen to live in a jurisdiction that care more about users than companies, like the EU. The manufacturer would have to prove that the new custom firmware is actually the cause of the damage, otherwise they need to fulfill the warranty guarantee regardless of what firmware you run.

Good luck proving that changing the firmware is not voiding a warranty.

> Good luck proving that changing the firmware is not voiding a warranty.

You're thinking about it the wrong way around. The manufacturer has to prove that the custom firmware is the reason it broke, you don't have to prove anything. Username not accurate.

Installing Valetudo stops any firmeware updates forever from the OEM. [1]

I wouldn't consider it a hack. It's an alternative way to run your vacuum, with yes potentially less features if the OEM makes a lot of future updates, but Valetudo also comes with their own set of updates.

[1] https://valetudo.cloud/pages/usage/firmware-updates.html

>Are there any good robo-vacuum cleaners that will still clean your floor if the internet is down?

It depends on what exactly you want. My Roborock can't connect to my Wi-Fi anymore for some unfathomable reason. It no longer runs automatically, and I can't edit its map or tell it where exactly to clean. I just hit the power button once a day to start it manually, and it cleans everything it can access.

Had a Neato Botvac D7 for many years, works completely offline and it's cleaning route is pretty smart using lidar.

Can't vouch for their newer models just because this one has worked so well for years.

Neato went bankrupt lol

My D7 lost its mapping capability (including markerless no go zone) a few weeks ago due to the new owner pulling the plug early on their server. An enthusiast is jerry rigging an offline solution thanks to a vuln in an earlier firmware, but for those unwilling to solder an esp32 to the debug port of their vacuum they essential got a lesser robot overnight.

Just buy an old Roomba on Ebay. Mine doesn’t even know what the internet is. You push the button and it goes. There is a huge market of cheap aftermarket batteries for it.

> Are there any good robo-vacuum cleaners that will still clean your floor if the internet is down?

What do you mean? Why would you need an internet connection for a vacuum cleaner?

(Sorry for asking, I've never owned a robot one, plus I am old.)

Lots of modern appliances connect to the Internet, have multiple computers inside that need updates, maintenance, maybe subscription payments, and that need to phone home everything they see, hear and do.

Huh, why is that? Admittedly, I only own older appliances, but somehow they don't require updates.

Subscription payments? For household devices you own?

I suspect "phoning home" is a good incentive for manufacturers, but why would anyone buy such a device then?

Dunno, but welcome to the world post-IOT.

You've apparently been off the web and out of stores for over a decade. Home Depot sells a bluetooth-connected shower head (just the head - it doesn't turn the water on). There are smart thermostats that are wifi connected so you can change the temperature of your house from anywhere in the world... for reasons...

You're right, I'm trying hard to practice digital detox as much as I can. Unfortunately, for job and family reasons I cannot give up an internet connection at home, but I have never owned a mobile phone in my life.

It often feels strange when I peak out my head into the real world as it exists today.

Not buying them means usually having a good understanding what "smart" means, or why having an app as a requirement is silly. The mean consumer has no idea what any of that means, they sometimes even lack the technical vocabulary needed to put into words what annoys them.

Check out valetudo.

Second this if you are willing to do some mild hardware hacking. I've been running valetudo on two Dreame L10 vacuums for three years without issue. Keeps a lot of the smart features, for use over lan instead of a cloud connection.

I have bought a Dreame L10 Ultra with Valetudo in mind, but I discovered that if you skip connecting it to the internet during the setup process, you can still use it normally. I don’t care about any of the smart features and simply start a full cleaning or a spot cleaning by pressing a hardware button on the robot itself.

Yeah, just press the button? I thought all machines have that.

Good point. That seems like a good option as well if you don't need any other features.

I don't really use many of the smart features, but the ability to set up cleaning zones in valetudo has been really nice. Same goes for "do not clean" zones.

I recommend to look at Kärcher RCV 5. High quality.

https://www.kaercher.com/us/home-garden/robot-vacuums-and-mo...

I have a roomba i3, it's blocked at the network level, but it is connected to my home assistant instance. It can clean and map rooms but doesn't communicate with the cloud because of the network blocking.

I mean, Miele make one, so there’s that. No idea if it’s any good.

Obviously no guarantee that Miele will exist in a decade, but I wouldn’t bet against them personally.

I don’t get where the fear mongering is coming from on this. All or nearly all robot vacuums have controls for their various functions on the side. Plenty of robotic vacuums even come with remotes so you can program schedules without a phone/wifi/internet. If you go really cheap you can get decent robots that won’t even let you connect to WiFi if you tried (at least as of a few years ago).

I have eufy 11s. It does a braindead bump-and-run algorithm that uses no computer vision and does not map your room. It's a bit slower, but still does a solid job. Cheap too.

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