In my opinion, access to internet should always be behind a device controlled by an adult. And it should be this adult's responsibility to set appropriate restrictions for minors.
So we talk about it and try to get them to manage it themselves. They're not unwilling, but the addiction of continuous scrolling is really hard to break. It's not even that the content is terrible, it's more just the mindless zombies -- like sitting all day on the couch watching TV. And they don't even have an IG or TT account (and won't be getting one for a long time) -- this is YouTube (which now has endless scrolling like TT) which I don't want to block altogether because there's other helpful resources on there.
I've always been an early adopter, and was on BBS and IRC and all that back in the day, love the fact that the Internet is a place you can easily set up your own blog and all that, but recently I've honestly come to f*ing hate the internet in general and social media in particular.
My daughter is still a baby, so the problem is still a few years away. But I don't know how to best handle it.
In some ways, I see social media as more poisonous to the brain than alcohol or tobacco. So, forbidding - or heavily limiting - internet access sounds like a plan.
On the other hand, part of me being a parent is teaching her how to navigate the world. And part of that, wether I like or not, is using the internet. Having contact with the communication tools that exist.
The world is full of sons of bitches. If I don't teach her how to deal with that, I would be raising an idiot.
Still, a problem for the future me to ponder over.
Did a pretty good job of not tempting me to try it very much.
"Stranger Danger" is no longer don't get into a van with someone who promises you sweets kinda thing.
The key is to be open about it and “more” than reasonable; allow things when requested that aren’t harmful.
If we’re too perfect at protecting them from the world they’ll have no tools to deal with the world, which they will have to do eventually.
Now why they came back, and weren’t working before? The restrictions were so full of holes that they didn’t really work as anything other than a speedbump.
It looks like normal user device enrollment with device management is optional, hence why I think business probably makes sense.
https://support.apple.com/en-sg/guide/apple-business-manager...
The you can force all traffic through a proxy.
https://support.apple.com/en-sg/guide/deployment/dep7ba46fcd...
And since you have root certs on the devices, you can decrypt traffic and uniquely identify devices and block internet from your central management, at any time, regardless if the phone is on your wifi vs a friend's vs mobile data.
I think it should work.
We also have pi-hole running that blocks a lot of things, and can turn on and off certain domains (so they can play roblox etc for a short while, then its blocked again) and their devices are pretty locked down
All four of my daughters prohibit my 7 grandchildren from going anywhere near roblox. My grandchildren are currently ages 2-11 but my daughters are so outraged by what happens there that they say their children will never be allowed on roblox until they move out of the house. Apparently it is extremely predatory, lots of bullying, and highly sexualized - and while children are the site's target audience, the site provides no effective oversight.
You can't.
I know that was snarky, but that already exists in Germany, since the introduction of the civil law book two centuries ago. Children are legally required to do chores. Actually this is quite important, as otherwise it would be an adult requiring minors to do unpaid work, which is illegal.
That's the implication of making a law.
It doesn't matter that you could do those things before the internet the normal and often only or only practical flow involves the net.
Counter offer we keep letting people manage their own kids' shit and they can control access to the degree they deem appropriate
But the problem is that people are NOT managing their own kids' shit, and now we have to have things put in place to try and counter that - and end up overreaching.
I'm more than happy to educate mine on how to be safe online, and to come and talk to us about stuff, other aren't, or are not aware they need to.
Perhaps buying internet means you have to sign a waiver saying that if anything happens because of the internet then that is on the parent(s)...
Instead how about we simply continue to make reasonable laws regarding behaviour and holding individual people and companies responsible when they violate the law.
Whilst we are at it we can keep content filtering for pre teens and imposed by parents and accept that teens are going to figure out how to get to the real internet at some point.
What happens when the parent goes to bed and the kid hard resets the router? Or the parent goes to bed and the kid spoofs the mac of the parent's device?
It's a good outcome! Let the cat and mouse games begin, and the youth will be more tech literate than ever. But I think punishing the parents is a bit much.
It'll probably eventually be like how modern folks treat play dates when they ask the counterparty if there are guns in their house and whether they're locked, etc. but with the internet: Do you have a central device management system with proper safeguards, logging, and ml running for anomaly detection on your network? Do you dpi? How do you prevent your kids from evil maiding you? Is your personal computer locked in a cage, and do you check all your paraphernalia for keyloggers, etc. before booting?
There are also a ton of tricks and workarounds it's super frustrating.
No? They are surely somewhere in the top 3 influences that can actually have a meaningful difference here.
Yes, I have set up technical guardrails.
But when your kid needs Internet access to do their homework, and you forget to turn off the WiFi to their device after they're done... then they sneak that Chromebook to their room and watch videos all night, you lose.
When you have a extra phone that was sitting on your desk that you were preparing to resell and your kid sneaks that to their room to watch a few hundred YouTube shorts before you catch him, you lose.
When you have parental controls set up on your wifi network, but it's trivial to shut the wifi off and use the cellular network instead, you lose.
When your friends all have personal cell phones but you don't, you lose.
Parents have their hands full enough. Make it easier for parents, don't poke at them with a pointy stick.
You are at fault.
> When you have a extra phone that was sitting on your desk that you were preparing to resell and your kid sneaks that to their room to watch a few hundred YouTube shorts before you catch him, you lose.
You are at fault.
> When you have parental controls set up on your wifi network, but it's trivial to shut the wifi off and use the cellular network instead, you lose.
This can be controlled via Parental Controls on iOS via Screen Time. If you chose not to, you are at fault.
> When your friends all have personal cell phones but you don't, you lose.
Not sure what you want anyone to do about this. I recognize that life isnt fair.
> Parents have their hands full enough. Make it easier for parents, don't poke at them with a pointy stick.
No one is arguing against this. They are arguing how to implement this.
And yes, you are arguing against "making it easier for parents" - my original post literally advocated for legislating tech companies to make controls available, effective, and easy to use. If you truly believe what you're saying, then you'd agree with me. Instead you're nitpicking my ability to parent my kids. Exactly the behavior that isn't working, so please continue - I'm sure it'll work now.
You willingly invited that conversation. I obliged.
> If you truly believe what you're saying, then you'd agree with me.
Get over yourself. You have not made an attempt to ask for a solution from me to find common ground. You keep trying to remove yourself from the responsibilities of parenting in the modern world as shown in the examples you put forth and your initial post asking that parents not shoulder the blame for what is happening under their nose. Surely they have some level of culpability.
I believe that it would be good for Parental Controls on devices to have a toggle to say that the phone is being used by someone in under 13, or someone 14-18 (whatever bands you want). When enabled, this flag should be available to locally installed apps and remote connections. Laws can be passed that tell remote connections how they must act when receiving this flag. This keeps me, an free adult, from being subjected to more corpo/govt tracking.
Ad hominem attacks - great way to find common ground. I actually did try to find common ground, which is that we need to legislate. My argument is that the real entities that need legislation are the ones who can most afford to do so - in both time, resources, and ownership of the platforms that we are all beholden to. I will not advocate for even more punitive restrictions on parents (who already are subject to enough societal punitive pressures as it is - TBH your post is a great example. Instead of empathy, you reply with scorn and derision - as if I'm not good enough to parent my kids).
> I believe that it would be good for Parental Controls on devices to have a toggle to say that the phone is being used by someone in under 13, or someone 14-18 (whatever bands you want).
So you're admitting that parental controls are ineffective?
> Laws can be passed that tell remote connections how they must act when receiving this flag.
And those laws are enforced through what mechanism? What country enforces this law? Do ISPs now have to only accept connections from "legal" remote servers that have attested that they respect that flag? That sounds like an even more restrictive situation for you, as a free adult, than the current system.
But, I do have good news! What you described already exists! In fact, there are even W3C standards that have been around for 30 years to implement a machine readable content rating system! Just never got around to that whole passing a law thing to force all websites globally to adopt it...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platform_for_Internet_Content_... and more recently https://www.w3.org/2007/powder/. You can read the ACM paper on this, aptly titled "Internet Access Controls Without Censorship" here: https://www.w3.org/PICS/iacwcv2.htm.
And the most popular web browser of the early 2000s even has this functionality built in - to filter out remote connections that advertise content unsuitable for minors! https://www.isumsoft.com/internet/enable-content-advisor-in-...
Grow some skin. I used that ad hominem in response to your false dilemma/no true support comment of "If you truly believe what you're saying, then you'd agree with me". This comment ignores the obvious 3rd option that we can share underlying values (parental controls are helpful) while disagreeing on details, tradeoffs and the responsibility that comes with parenting.
> So you're admitting that parental controls are ineffective?
I never stated anything of the sort. I specifically pointed how they could be effective for you in the examples you brought forth. I think they could be made more effective, not that they are ineffective.
> And those laws are enforced through what mechanism?
If this is how you feel, than no solution you put forth is valid either.
At this point, I've stated how current parental controls can solve some of your issues, parental controls can be strengthen, outlined an implementation that does not disrupt the lives of Adults on the internet while also pointing out that parents are not immune from blame and are bare the majority of control over their childs lives. Ive engaged with you in good faith.
You just keeping shitting on everything. All because I stated that parents are not immune from blame. I stand by the ad hominem.
Now you have ubiquitous WiFi and cellular connectivity across dozens of devices in a typical household. Even refrigerators have built in web browsers now. Parental controls are a joke, treated as an afterthought at best - nonexistent at worst. Oh, and the school system provides your kids with a Chromebook with Internet access starting in elementary school.
It's victim blaming at its finest IMO. Yeah, we can all point fingers at the parents who sit their kids down with an iPad. But there's many of us who struggle to limit screen time, working against the profit motive of trillions of dollars of corporations. It's a losing battle.
Edit: crazy. Instead of providing an answer to my question of "how do you do this in practice" I get downvoted. Goes to show that there are no real solutions, just a bunch of morality police and victim blaming. Yes, parents are the victims here. The tools are inadequate and trillions of dollars of incentives are lined up against them.
While I think children need to be protected online, this won't but neither will trying to get parents to parent better