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Comment by mvkel | Hacker News Reader

As an immigrant to the US, I've often viewed the fervent wish to depart (among natural born citizens) to be the ultimate form of self-entitlement.

That you'd give up so easily when your voice, presence, and vote, matters most. It's being tested right now, and leaving is the only way to fail.

Also, why do you think any other country would -love- to have you?

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> That you'd give up so easily when your voice, presence, and vote, matters most.

There have been concerted efforts over the last couple decades (arguably much longer) to erode these things; gerrymandering, voter roll purges, eliminating/restricting polling locations and absentee voting, corporations and wealthy individuals have basically unlimited spend on electioneering and lobbying giving them a disproportionate voice, a worsening state of effectively dysfunctional/maligned politicians, corporate censorship, so on and so forth. In my state, a majority passed two state constitutional amendments and the establishment (gerrymandered) politicians didn't like that, spending the past couple of years rules lawyering, delaying, etc. to try to subvert the will of the people. Hell, they ignored multiple state supreme court orders on top of voter’s wishes.

Anyways, my point being that wanting to leave a country with increasing social, economic, and political troubles isn’t entitlement, anymore than you were entitled for immigrating to the US.

Personally, I agree that I’d rather stay and fight, not that I really can afford to do otherwise, yet I understand people frustrated about the notable decline we have seen in our lifetimes and worried about the knife’s edge we find ourselves upon regarding tyranny and authoritarianism.

And one thinks these things haven't been happening in other countries where one wishes to move?

What the GP is probably trying to say is that what the US is going through at present has been the default state for most of the developing world. And these things have been eroding in many of the western democracies for the past decade. Those that have been able to preserve it may not be more attractive in culture, geography or economic terms.

Hence the entitlement part where I think the people in the US took for granted what they have/had. We always realize the true value of something when we don't have it.

The Netherlands is not a part of the developing world, so I'm not sure why GP would be making that point. The article is not a lit moving from the US to Venezuela.

I don't assume that another country would LOVE to have me, I'd assume that I'd have to be an exemplary citizen to make it clear that I'm not another "ugly American".

The reason why I personally have been rolling the idea of leaving the country around in my head is because I'm gay and Hispanic (though born here), and I am NERVOUS about the direction this country is going. I do feel guilty about the idea of jumping ship, but it seems like it might be legitimately dangerous for people like me in the near future.

I probably won't leave, all my family and friends are here and it hurts to think about uprooting myself and leaving them, but it's NOT unreasonable. It's scary to be in an outgroup right now.

Sounds a bit like a Stockholm syndrome argument to be honest. There is nothing wrong with moving somewhere else because it aligns with your ideals and needs.

So how can an immigrant to the US not understand that someone might want to leave the country they're currently in because of the situation in that country?

I was going to ask about the same thing. Did they give up their voice by leaving to the US? It's a weird thing to say as an immigrant yourself.

I don't quite understand, are you chastising US emigrants because they are being entitled?

Are you not guilty of exactly the same thing from the perspective of your own country?

As with such arguments, they never apply to the one presenting them. Immigrants are bad, but not me. Taxes are good, but not mine. Nazis are bad, but not my grandpa.

The evidence broadly shows that the people who vote for this will not change their mind. Not when their farming business is likely going to fail due to tariffs (~78% of farmers voted for this), not when their North Carolina saw mill that has been in the family for forty years is forced to close (Mackey’s Ferry Sawmill), not when their ACA subsidies and SNAP benefits are pulled. One's presence and voice is immaterial. One can both vote and donate to campaigns from abroad; there is literally nothing one can do on US soil you cannot do from abroad while not exposing yourself and potentially family to a slowly failing and degrading governance system, that by all observations and evidence, hates its citizens with policy.

As I often ask when problem scoping, "What is your time horizon?" Will things change in 3, 5, 7, 10 years? ~2M voters 55+ die every year in the US, ~5k per day (mental models are rigid, progress occurs one funeral at a time as Planck said). Young voters were very excited for this admin, and now that vibes have met reality, they are not so excited, with a roughly 50 point swing in favorability in polling. I expect a swing back, considering recent elections over the last few weeks, but it will take quite some time.

So, from a first principles perspective, if you can live somewhere safer, better, or other idea of more favorable while losing nothing, why not? You can always move back if the US gets its shit together, and if it doesn't, you have made a home and life for yourself somewhere more favorable. Leaving is not giving up, it is merely having a better life experience while sacrificing nothing except US in person work opportunities and proximity to friends and loved ones (if applicable) for the time horizon in question. Some may feel entitled to functional governance systems, and they should (imho) vote with their feet and wallets. It is a rational evaluation in a volatile environment.

And if another country is offering you a residency visa or path to citizenship, they clearly want you. You might not be aware, but the developed world is going through a working age population crunch due to structural demographics; skilled workers are in demand, as well as those with either investment, pension, or social security income.

(think in systems)

The farmers and the sawmill operators are easily explained. I also listen to Bloomberg, lol. Those people are rich and most of their wealth is now diversified away from their businesses, and while they would rather keep those businesses alive because it's part of their family identity, they care more about reducing their taxes on their overall net worth.

Please explain the ACA subsidies and SNAP benefit cuts to rural republican voters who will still vote for this then. Are these people going to change their vote? Again, likely not. Their mental model and their identity is rigid (along with a bit of in group and tribalism) and they will very likely vote this way to the very end. You can live a better life by leaving while waiting for these voters to age out, because you cannot change their mind or their vote. If you stay, you will be exposed to governance outcomes from their votes.

You can think of it as the grey rock method in a political and expat context. You don't engage, doing so would be of no value; you just ignore and leave. Life is short, optimize accordingly.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/columnist/2025/10/30/...

https://thehill.com/opinion/healthcare/5325977-trump-budget-...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_rock_method

They are obviously not voting for a better life for themselves. They are voting for a worse life for their perceived enemies. A huge number of voters would rather suffer if it means people they don't like will suffer even more.

There it is. And that cannot be solved for on timelines relevant to people who can leave.

> if you can live somewhere safer, better, or other idea of more favorable while losing nothing, why not?

If.

Are you really losing nothing?

Depending on how much money you have, many countries would "love" to have you.

Although if you have that much money life in the US right now probably isn't personally on the extreme decline.

It’s perfectly clear now that half the voters in the US are enthusiastic about fascism and white supremacy. Frankly, it makes me physically ill. Pockets of the country are great, but the nation as a whole is going to become another Russia in my lifetime and it breaks my heart. Why subject myself to this torture? The time to change our fate was 2016 and 2024 and we failed miserably.

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