Employees of kixeye accused of racist remarks fired
develop-online.net
develop-online.net
What? Who says that? The only time I've heard the phrase "post racist" is either The Colbert Report, or people being sarcastic in reference to something really racist. It's because of places like Oakland that no one I know in San Francisco believes on any level we live in a "post racial America".
That little sentence is really offensive to me and hopefully others who are aware of the severe and drastic gender and racial inequalities in the tech industry.
Until I see ~10% of tech workforces being African American, I'm not even going to begin to think about "post racial" anything.
Its possible to start a software business with very little resources. And there are people of all races that have done so. Do the users know what race of people are developing their software? Do they care?
That does not mean that some groups are not more wary of doing things due to past racism and the possibility of encountering it more when they go outside their comfort zone. Many, many people in all groups do what is expected over many other values.
I also think there are just as many people who will go out of their way to help and do business with someone different as will hold it against them. Frankly, for many skills, if you're a coding demon, they will hire you. I doubt you will find anyone in any group with significant talent that isn't turning away work.
There are other factors as well. Many people in some communities don't like it when people try to improve themselves. Hopefully that is on the wain.
And then there is the effect of violence in places like Oakland. Its hard to stay out at all hours coding if you have to worry about who'll you encounter on the way home.
BUT it is a heck of a lot easier to paper over more subtle forms of racism by identifying racism as only the most outlandish kind, and the rest as someone being too sensitive or what have you.
A good rule of thumb is that everyone is at least a little bit racist. It's less of a problem if you're willing to admit it and work at it, but by suggesting that we are post-racial (we have a black president, therefore racism is over), white people let themselves off the hook from having to think much about race most of the time.
What are we doing to make sure this never happens again in the future? Well, even before this incident, we hired a VP of HR who has implemented a sensitivity training program for all employees.
Which was evidently ineffective.
Looks like it was effective.
Even groundless unlawful termination lawsuits are a pain in the ass to deal with. It's better to discourage them than to litigate them.
(I'm not trying to be snarky, BTW, just trying to understand hiring law, and bad employees)
They are certainly taking the threat of a lawsuit seriously.
Edit: I'd be interested in asking you a question privately. Mind emailing me? My email address is in my profile.
This is clearly a very disfunctional and unhealthy work environment, but with the aggressively paranoid reaction to it is equally unhealthy and most of all, fails to address the actual problem. After firing the "racists", this is likely to remain a toxic environment who's next "victim" could very well be a white heterosexual male who for some other reason forms an easy target.
I'm reminded of Bob Sutton's great book "The No Asshole Rule". The actions outlined in the blog post are undeniably asshole behaviors, and shouldn't be tolerated in any civilized workplace, with our without the racial implications.
http://bobsutton.typepad.com/my_weblog/the_no_asshole_rule/ http://blogs.hbr.org/sutton/2007/03/why_i_wrote_the_no_assho... http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-sutton/the-no-asshole-r...
The Kixeye CEO may have not intended to let things go this far, but from his remarks ( part 1: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jgntgj, part 2: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/jh72ja ) he shows a stunning lack of empathy. One big red flag for me was how he doesn't say how he is planning to make amends with the black contractor and the black community. So it's pretty clear to me that Will Harbin is part of the problem here, and likely is an asshole himself. The company's investors and leaders should take this as a wake-up call and either demote or fire him. They won't reach their potential with 'asshole leadership' in place.
A fish rots from the head down.
Actually, I'm not really sure if much beyond the most extreme forms of racism actually count, according to your definition. If racist language is not in itself a signifier of racism, then what the heck is?
And at a minimum it ought to be a firing offense. Social censure is ostensibly better, but in an environment where someone defends their remarks with "whoa whoa whoa this isn't racism--- it's jokes!", censure has obviously failed.
The day when white people are a persecuted minority is the day I'll line up right there with you. But we're not even close to that point, no matter how much white dudes like to think their rights (read: privilege) are under siege.
"And it’s not a matter of generalizing white people, rather it’s being real about the culture San Francisco creates. Other people of color, including some black people are in on it too, but the thing to remember is that there have always been people of color down with white supremacy. Matters of colonization run deep throughout the years and beneath our flesh, behind our eyes."
Patriarchy Feminist theory basically mean women are victims, man have power over woman and are conspiring (conscious or unconscious) oppressors. It is a very toxic and sexist theory, it ignores mens issues and it's also an Apex fallacy. Just because the majority of people at the top are male it does not mean they represent the majority of man. Did you know that in USA women hold the majority of the vote?
However I agree that people should not be forced in to gender roles and maybe that is what you meant when you wrote Patriarchy.
>metaphorically patted on the head by men
The majority of men (including traditionalists) don't treat women like dogs. Traditionalist men even believe in sacrificing their lives to save womens lives. A lot of modern men also believe in that sacrifice.
No, they really don't. Or rather they may say they do, but when it comes it, then they don't. See the recent study of ship evacuations for proof, it's women and children last.
And remember, the civil rights era began only 50 years ago. By contrast, Jim Crow -- institutionalized, legally-sanctioned racism -- was the law of the land for 100 years prior. No matter how far we've come, that can and still does leave an impression. A case in point would be Lee Atwater's Southern Strategy; a major party's electoral strategy more or less explicitly hinged on exploiting racism. Or lookup sundown towns.
So what's the problem? It seems perfectly logical and uncontroversial to suggest that the US citizenry, including black people, would still have widespread problems with race, subtle or overt. But on account of the (usually) social rejection of overt racism, people tend to think racism is over. It's pretty straightforward.
Wow. I assume that somewhere along the line, that guy misunderstood 'zero tolerance of racism'.
Newsflash: if you are interesting or do cool stuff I don't give a fuck about your skin tone or sexual preference.
>if you are interesting or do cool stuff I don't give a fuck about your skin tone
And I'm guessing you're white and straight and thus have not spent the amount of timing thinking about others as I and other people have. We're not worried about you. We're worried about people like these employees who DO give "a fuck" about skin tone or sexual preference.
It's funny that you condemn him for probably jokingly and self-deprecatingly calling himself a "poor black queer", yet that's what he was reduced to when you're treated as such day in and day out.
You are not wrong about me, but I have plenty of gay friends in the workplace, and being talented they don't define themselves through their orientation.
Conversely, when everyone around you can instantly see that you are different, and when you're reminded daily that you are different by mainstream culture, you'd probably have a different attitude. You're visibly, repeatedly, and viscerally reminded that you are Different.
I don't know what that's like, but it's something this particular fellow has to live with every moment of his life. That's going to have an impact on your attitude, and I'm willing to cut the guy more than a little slack.
"Can't we all get along" is a luxury cis, straight, white males have, in no small part because a lot of mainstream American culture is created by and for that set of categories.
Just a friendly heads-up, the phrase "sexual preference" is like fingernails on a chalkboard to a lot of people, as the word "preference" implies choice which isn't in line with our best understanding of how sexual orientation works.
I'm not offended, but I'm guessing you don't want to accidentally offend people. After all, you don't give a fuck.
This is completely regardless of the case at hand, mind. I expect companies to act responsibly towards all employees.
Company management has an affirmative requirement to stop workplace harassment under California law. Race and sexual preference are both protected categories under California law. I was amazed at the stupidity of the management (assuming the post was factual).
I do remember when working at one of the big three video game publishers:
1) HR and managers would repeatedly educate both new workers and existing employees on both racial discrimination and sexual harassment on a semi-quarterly basis.
2) HR would give anonymous surveys regarding workplace environment every quarter.
Regarding the last item, at my last stint at a gaming company; a co-worker reported a case of racial discrimination and it was handled promptly and professionally. There was no time for anyone to blog about the subject. I'm going to agree with other people, HR wasn't doing their job effectively.
Actually, when I think about it, it seems to me that I see less such speech in online games than I did even just a couple of years ago. Maybe I'm just playing different games from that crowd now.
It's just the same juvenile idiots both online and in the office. Videogame companies tend to attract both the most talented engineers as well as a lot of juvenile idiots. A good HR dept helps mitigate these problems. A video game company without one is either really small or really inexperienced and new.
The thing is, you have to be really careful about selection bias and confirmation bias, here. This example happened to be one of the most egregious examples, the easiest to spot. A lot of the more subtle cues will fly right over your head, especially since a lot of behavior with racist over- or undertones is not something white people are exposed to or experience. (I include myself in this statement.)
Granted, I am assuming you are white, chiefly based on the demographics of HN and the tech community in general.
I'm not white, but I'm still extremely not likely to be a target of racist language. In most tech offices, they try to do a good job to avoid unnecessary lawsuits that can cost in the millions. I also feel that tech offices tend to have more educated people on a whole, which massively helps.
> And how keyed into the more subtle forms of racism are you?
I'm aware. "subtle cues" do not "fly right over" my head
Fair enough. On the basis of the previous threads on this topic, it seems to me, at least, that most HNers who bothered to comment didn't or don't get it.
I've had a situation that was sort of similar where a co-worker made a comment on my clothing being too uhm, urban. Jeans, oversized hoodie (hood up), and shit kicker boots. I was sick, and it was freezing out walked into a meeting and it was announced that Eminem just walked into the meeting. My reply was (paraphrased) that "Is that the only white rapper you know, I don't look anything like Eminem". I guess I was looking for something like Sage Francis or Necro, but I digress. I felt singled out for the way that I dress. Now I guess that anyone can debate here if what I said or the initial comment was racist, but I would say that it wasn't, just ignorant and stupid. That said, if that comment was slanted ever so slightly to the fact that I have some Jewish heritage, it would trigger a soft spot and would have REALLY irked me. Had some issues with that early in life.
So considering the more over-the-top racist comments, and initial reaction of management when confronted, this whole situation is really awful and should not happen. Instead of debating if this is really racism, we should probably just try to limit and control it's effect on our lives. It exists, it's all around us and you don't have to look very far, even in tech companies.
That's not the same thing at all. The guy in question was accused of dressing too "thuggish" when he was wearing skinny jeans and wingtips. In other words, because he was black, regardless of what he was wearing.
A joke was made about how you were dressed because you had a hoodie with the hood up and are apparently white... like Eminem[1][2][3][4].
[1] http://cdn.preview.thumbplay.com/VAN/Thumb_Preview/Wall/UMG/...
[2] http://images.hitfix.com/photos/703638/eminem-hoodie_article...
[3] http://www4.pictures.gi.stylebistro.com/Eminem+Tops+Hoodie+0...
[4] http://inthehoodie.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/emine...
Lots of rappers wear hoodies. My point wasn't that anything there was racist, just that you do get comments for dressing differently, not fitting in. Those alone don't make this racist, the other comments do.
So is it that baggy jeans are less professional looking, or a racially motivated attack on urban lifestyle and dress. It doesn't matter really, the rest of the comments provide enough of a backdrop for us to make our own conclusions, which is all this is.
Personally, I would say that you are the one who is being ignorant and stupid by dressing like a clown, and then getting all huffy when someone gently pokes fun at you. Also, there's nothing racist about not liking someone's clothing. Clothing is not a race.
In conclusion, douches like you are the reason we have dress codes. Good job.
What a horrible thing to say. You're being insulting to someone who is trying to contribute and you're totally missing the point. We try to be better than that here.
I am not convinced that baggies and a hoodie convey responsibility and professionalism, as befitting someone who has been given a free reign to dress as they see fit.
A problem comes up, identify some scapegoats, fire them, put out a PR statement.
Whether or not this is meaningful won't be obvious for some time. But at most dysfunctional workplaces the problems go deeper than the scapegoats fired, and problems persist. With an overlay of, "You got my friend fired!"
“Hey he’s dressed like Run DMC, does he know how to rap?”
Oh, the poor darling. Let's ruin a bunch of people's livelihoods over this apparently wicked comment.
If you're offended by things like this you are either:
a) Extremely sheltered. b) A racist yourself.
You're being downvoted for speaking the truth. They're not downvoting you because you called someone racist or sheltered, at least you know that. It can't be because you told him to go fuck himself since being civil obviously isn't something they care about either.
Of course not, because clearly in this case it's just a case of men being men and flinging the usual shit at each other. I'm surprised I have to spell this out.
Don't you have friends?
How often do you ask your black friends if they know how to rap?
Really? The "I know you are, but what am I" defense?
You're suggesting that my previous response is a total fail.
At the risk of my appearing to be totally thick, can I ask you to explain why?
Actually being a racist? Bad. Pointing out that something sounded racist? An opportunity for the person who said that to apologize and reframe or withdraw, perhaps leading to a less racist environment.
Welllll, you never really know though.
It seems prudent to not underestimate the googling skills of future (potential) employers...
There are consequences here because there is username, user identities are often shared across sites, and there is a karma system here. They may be mild, but obviously karma is consequential or it wouldn't exist as a concept on the site. Your score is your aggregate reputation among other users. People fear saying things that will lower their karma.
This guy didn't ruin anyone's livelihoods. He relayed what happened to him. Last I heard people are allowed to do that.
Imagine having these things said to you, having it reinforced by others at your workplace. Imagine how dehumanizing it is. The indignity. Imagine having to face it again, day after day. And you've been dealing with it your entire life. Just take five minutes and think about the real impact this sort of thing has on someone.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you aren't trolling but just being obtuse.
This wasn't a one-off misunderstanding. It was a series of unambiguous incidents, all in a single month.
This has nothing to do with political correctness. I'm sure the casual conversations among me and my coworkers would be extremely offensive to some people. When you know someone well enough to know their boundaries, you can step beyond the norms of decency without risking offense. This is so self-evident that even the most socially awkward programmers know it instinctively. Can you misread someone and offend them gravely as a result? Yes, we've all done that. But if you're the least bit considerate, it's a one-time incident and ends there.