This is a common intuition but it's provably false.
The fact that LLMs are trained on a corpus does not mean their output represents the median skill level of the corpus.
Eighteen months ago GPT-4 was outperforming 85% of human participants in coding contests. And people who participate in coding contests are already well above the median skill level on Github.
And capability has gone way up in the last 18 months.
https://mikelovesrobots.substack.com/p/wheres-the-shovelware...
Basically, if the tools are even half as good as some proponents claim, wouldn't you expect at least a significant increase in simple games on Steam or apps in app stores over that time frame? But we're not seeing that.
GitHub repos is pretty interesting too but it could be that people just aren't committing this stuff. Showing zero increase is unexpected though.
Charts I'm looking at show a mild exponential around 2024 https://www.statista.com/statistics/552623/number-games-rele...
Also theres probably a bottleneck in manual review time.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Uy2aWoeRZopMIaXXxY2E...
The shovelware software is coming…
App stores have quality hurdles that didn’t exist in the diskette days. The types of people making low quality software now can self publish (and in fact do, often), but they get drowned out by established big dogs or the ever-shifting firehose of our social zeitgeist if you are not where they are.
Anyone who has been on Reddit this year in any software adjacent sub has seen hundreds (at minimum) of posts about “feedback on my app” or slop posts doing a god awful job of digging for market insights on pain points.
The core problem with this guy’s argument is that he’s looking in the wrong places - where a SWE would distribute their stuff, not a normie - and then drawing the wrong conclusions. And I am telling you, normies are out there, right now, upchucking some of the sloppiest of slop software you could ever imagine with wanton abandon.
Or even solving problems that business need to solve, generally speaking.
This complete misunderstand of what software engineering even is is the major reason so many engineers are fed up with the clueless leaders foisting AI tools upon their orgs because they apparently lack the critical reasoning skills to be able to distinguish marketing speak from reality.
Coding contests are not like my job at all.
My job is taking fuzzy human things and making code that solves it. Frankly AI isn’t good at closing open issues on open source projects either.
First, I don't know where those human participants came from, but if you pick people off the street or from a college campus, they aren't going to be the world's best programmers. On the other hand, github users are on average more skilled than the average CS student. Even students and beginners who use github usually don't have much code there. If the LLMs are weighted to treat every line of code about same, they'd pick up more lines of code from prolific developers (who are often more experienced) than they would from beginners.
Also in a coding contest, you're under time pressure. Even when your code works, its often ugly and thrown together. On github, the only code I check in is code that solves whatever problem I set out to solve. I suspect everyone writes better code on github than we do in programming competitions. I suspect if you gave the competitors functionally unlimited time to do the programming competition, many more would outperform GPT-4.
Programming contests also usually require that you write a fully self contained program which has been very well specified. The program usually doesn't need any error handling, or need to be maintained. (And if it does need error handling, the cases are all fully specified in the problem description). Relatively speaking, LLMs are pretty good at these kind of problems - where I want some throwaway code that'll work today and get deleted tomorrow.
But most software I write isn't like that. And LLMs struggle to write maintainable software in large projects. Most problems aren't so well specified. And for most code, you end up spending more effort maintaining the code over its lifetime than it takes to write in the first place. Chatgpt usually writes code that is a headache to maintain. It doesn't write or use local utility functions. It doesn't factor its code well. The code is often overly verbose. It often writes code that's very poorly optimized. Or the code contains quite obvious bugs for unexpected input - like overflow errors or boundary conditions. And the code it produces very rarely handles errors correctly. None of these problems really matter in programming competitions. But it does matter a lot more when writing real software. These problems make LLMs much less useful at work.
It does, by default. Try asking ChatGPT to implement quicksort in JavaScript, the result will be dogshit. Of course it can do better if you guide it, but that implies you recognize dogshit, or at least that you use some sort of prompting technique that will veer it off the beaten path.
----
function quickSortInPlace(arr, left = 0, right = arr.length - 1) { if (left < right) { const pivotIndex = partition(arr, left, right); quickSortInPlace(arr, left, pivotIndex - 1); quickSortInPlace(arr, pivotIndex + 1, right); } return arr; }
function partition(arr, left, right) { const pivot = arr[right]; let i = left;
for (let j = left; j < right; j++) {
if (arr[j] < pivot) {
[arr[i], arr[j]] = [arr[j], arr[i]];
i++;
}
}
[arr[i], arr[right]] = [arr[right], arr[i]]; // Move pivot into place
return i;
}- It always uses the last item as a pivot, which will give it pathological O(n^2) performance if the list is sorted. Passing an already sorted list to a sort function is a very common case. Good quicksort implementations will use a random pivot, or at least the middle pivot so re-sorting lists is fast.
- If you pass already sorted data, the recursive call to quickSortInPlace will take up stack space proportional to the size of the array. So if you pass a large sorted array, not only will the function take n^2 time, it might also generate a stack overflow and crash.
- This code: ... = [arr[j], arr[i]]; Creates an array and immediately destructures it. This is - or at least used to be - quite slow. I'd avoid doing that in the body of quicksort's inner loop.
- There's no way to pass a custom comparator, which is essential in real code.
I just tried in firefox:
// Sort an array of 1 million sorted elements
arr = Array(1e6).fill(0).map((_, i) => i)
console.time('x')
quickSortInPlace(arr)
console.timeEnd('x')
Uncaught InternalError: too much recursion
Secondly, if a standard implementation was to be used, that's essentially a No-Op. AI will reuse library functions where possible by default and agents will even "npm install" them for you. This is purely the result of my prompt, which was simply "Can you write a QuickSort implementation in JS?"
In any case, to incorporate your feedback, I simply added "that needs to sort an array of a million elements and accepts a custom comparator?" to the initial prompt and reran in a new session, and this is what I got in less than 5 seconds. It runs in about 160ms on Chrome:
How long would your team-mate have taken? What else would you change? If you have further requirements, seriously, you can just add those to the prompt and try it for yourself for free. I'd honestly be very curious to see where it fails.
However, this exchange is very illustrative: I feel like a lot of the negativity is because people expect AI to read their minds and then hold it against it when it doesn't.
Lol of course! The real requirements for a piece of software are never specified in full ahead of time. Figuring out the spec is half the job.
> Firstly, how often do you really need to sort a million elements in a browser anyway? I expect that sort of heavy lifting would usually be done on the server
Who said anything about the browser? I run javascript on the server all the time.
Don't defend these bugs. 1 million items just isn't very many items for a sort function. On my computer, the built in javascript sort function can sort 1 million sorted items in 9ms. I'd expect any competent quicksort implementation to be able to do something similar. Hanging for 1 minute then crashing is a bug.
If you want a use case, consider the very common case of sorting user-supplied data. If I can send a JSON payload to your server and make it hang for 1 minute then crash, you've got a problem.
> If you have further requirements, seriously, you can just add those to the prompt and try it for yourself for free. [..] How long would your team-mate have taken?
We've gotta compare like for like here. How long does it take to debug code like this when an AI generates it? It took me about 25 minutes to discover & verify those problems. That was careful work. Then you reprompted it, and then you tested the new code to see if it fixed the problems. How long did that take, all added together? We also haven't tested the new code for correctness or to see if it has new bugs. Given its a complete rewrite, there's a good chance chatgpt introduced new issues. I've also had plenty of instances where I've spotted a problem and chatgpt apologises then completely fails to fix the problem I've spotted. Especially lifetime issues in rust - its really bad at those!
The question is this: Is this back and forth process faster or slower than programming quicksort by hand? I'm really not sure. Once we've reviewed and tested this code, and fixed any other problems in it, we're probably looking at about an hour of work all up. I could probably implement quicksort at a similar quality in a similar amount of time. I find writing code is usually less stressful than reviewing code, because mistakes while programming are usually obvious. But mistakes while reviewing are invisible. Neither you nor anyone else in this thread spotted the pathological behavior this implementation had with sorted data. Finding problems like that by just looking is hard.
Quicksort is also the best case for LLMs. Its a well understood, well specified problem with a simple, well known solution. There isn't any existing code it needs to integrate with. But those aren't the sort of problems I want chatgpt's help solving. If I could just use a library, I'm already doing that. I want chatgpt to solve problems its probably never seen before, with all the context of the problem I'm trying to solve, to fit in with all the code we've already written. It often takes 5-10 minutes of typing and copy+pasting just to write a suitable prompt. And in those cases, the code chatgpt produces is often much, much worse.
> I feel like a lot of the negativity is because people expect AI to read their minds and then hold it against it when it doesn't.
Yes exactly! As a senior developer, my job is to solve the problem people actually have, not the problem they tell me about. So yes of course I want it to read my mind! Actually turning a clear spec into working software is the easy part. ChatGPT is increasingly good at doing the work of a junior developer. But as a senior dev / tech lead, I also need to figure out what problems we're even solving, and what the best approach is. ChatGPT doesn't help much when it comes to this kind of work.
(By the way, that is basically a perfect definition of the difference between a junior and senior developer. Junior devs are only responsible for taking a spec and turning it into working software. Senior devs are responsible for reading everyone's mind, and turning that into useful software.)
And don't get me wrong. I'm not anti chatgpt. I use it all the time, for all sorts of things. I'd love to use it more for production grade code in large codebases if I could. But bugs like this matter. I don't want to spend my time babysitting chatgpt. Programming is easy. By the time I have a clear specification in my head, its often easier to just type out the code myself.
That's where we come in of course! Look into spec-driven development. You basically encourage the LLM to ask questions and hash out all these details.
> Who said anything about the browser?... Don't defend these bugs.
A problem of insufficient specification... didn't expect an HN comment to turn into an engineering exercise! :-) But these are the kinds of things you'd put in the spec.
> How long does it take to debug code like this when an AI generates it? It took me about 25 minutes to discover & verify those problems.
Here's where it gets interesting: before reviewing any code, I basically ask it to generate tests, which always all pass. Then I review the main code and test code, at which point I usually add even more test-cases (e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46143454). And, because codegen is so cheap, I can even include performance tests, (which statistically speaking, nobody ever does)!
Here's a one-shot result of that approach (I really don't mean to take up more of your time, this is just so you can see what it is capable of): https://pastebin.com/VFbW7AKi
While I do review the code (a habit -- I always review my own code before a PR), I review the tests more closely because, while boring, I find them a) much easier to review, and b) more confidence-inspiring than manual review of intricate logic.
> I want chatgpt to solve problems its probably never seen before, with all the context of the problem I'm trying to solve, to fit in with all the code we've already written.
Totally, and again, this is where we come in! Still, it is a huge productivity booster even in uncommon contexts. E.g. I'm using it to do computer vision stuff (where I have no prior background!) with opencv.js for a problem not well-represented in the literature. It still does amazingly well... with the right context. It's initial suggestions were overindexed on the common case, but over many conversations, it "understood" my use-case and consistently gives appropriate suggestions. And because it's vision stuff, I can instantly verify results by sight.
Big caveat: success depends heavily on the use-case. I have had more mixed results in other cases, such as concurrency issues in an LD_PRELOAD library in C. One reason for the mixed sentiments we see.
> ChatGPT is increasingly good at doing the work of a junior developer.
Yes, and in fact, I've been rather pessimistic about the prospects of junior developers, a personal concern given I have a kid who wants to get into software engineering...
I'll end with a note that my workflow today is extremely different from before AI, and it took me many months of experimentation to figure out what worked for me. Most engineers simply haven't had the time to do so, which is another reason we see so many mixed sentiments. But I would strongly encourage everybody to invest the time and effort because this discipline is going to change drastically really quickly.