They also get a lot of support from India, including military protection, and primary trade/currency links as well as covering most of their diplomatic needs. It’s like how Lichtenstein relates to Switzerland.
That protection is notional, and the expectation that China (their only other neighbour) is not really going to get aggressive about this peaceful tiny country, but then there’s Tibet as an example. So then why is it notional? If China were to get aggressive, we (India) will not be able to do jack about it because, hell, we couldn’t defend our own territorial claims and have been losing land to China, one outpost at a time. No, not only from the wars from decades ago, but also very recently — yeah, that means even after this omnipotent non-biological entity became our own version of the glorious leader.
Yeah, this 12/14 number you picked out of the air will only work until China decides it is 12/30 next year and 12/50 the next decade. Kindly remember that China has expanded its international map. They have now formally put the Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh as part of Chinese territory since 2023. A state which has a duly ELECTED native chief minister and also native representatives. A state that has China has decided to claim due to its natural resources and extensive biodiversity - which India, by constitutional law, is not permitted to exploit to protect natives and indigenous tribal communities. NONE of whom have any Chinese traditions. You should come to the state and check for yourself.
Citizens of the state with transit flights through China get harassed and bullied by Chinese officialdom, even after getting "no-objection" by the Chinese embassy at nation of departure.
How can you settle borders when one nation keeps expanding their formal map ?
https://i.imgur.com/K9JRarz.png
12/14 PRC ratified landborder is like... the easiest thing to cross reference since they're internationally ratified treatsies and you know... that 14 land border hasn't change post war, like are 16/36 new countries just going to pop out of existence? Is India going to fragment to create all those new countries for PRC to claim?
Kindly remember PRC map has remained exactly what is since inherited from ROC, i.e. there has been zero new claims except what was under dispute for the past 70 years. Hell, AP claim dates back to 1914 not 2023, it's always been in PRC maps. This is 101 history / geopoltics. This here ahistoric understanding is exactly why India has so much problems settling borders with her neighbours vs PRC resolving 12/14th, making PRC the most successfull and benevolent (i.e. almost all with >50% concessions) in human history.
So can you settle borders with such a magnamous power? Hint 12/14 countries did, the 13th Bhutan wants to, India is the holdout. So the answer is, very easily, unless your populous is terminally ignorant of history and thinks being the 1/14h holdout isn't a sign that maybe PRC isn't the problem. Note how in table PRC settled most of her disputes in <10 years, India took ~40 with Bangladesh, at some point timepass mentality stops being excuse. And again it's not PRC whose not willing to settle, and provide MORE concessions, it's India who thinks it should get 100%, which is frankly not a serious position.
https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2023/08/30/chinas-updated-map-and...
https://www.gmfus.org/news/unpacking-chinas-new-standard-map
This is the easiest thing to cross-reference regarding expansion of their national map. Why should we "magnanimously" decide to give away land that India actually holds according to the 1914 treaty ? Why should we give away our eastern states ? None of them have Chinese ethnicity. They all have native elected representatives. Again - come and do a tour of Eastern Indian states such as Arunachal Pradesh - they don't speak Chinese, they have indigenous native tribes. Calling the area "South Tibet" is an absolute joke.
We will stick to the 1914 Treaty. We will not accept China's formal territorial expansion in 2023. Neither do other states like Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia (nearly a dozen nations) that have completely rejected the same.
PS: As a clear contradiction - even the Russian negotiations never got properly settled in your 12/14. China claimed the whole Bolshoy Ussuriysky island yet again. So even stuff that is settled needs to get re-settled once China expands its ambitions. What is the point ?
1914 treaty doesn't apply to PRC because you know... they didn't ratify Simla and explicitly repudiated it. A country is not bound to a treaty it didn't sign. India's position of what they ratify between UK and somehow that applies to ROC/PRC/China which isn't party to it and explictly does not endorse is is frankly another unserious position. Like this is a territory dispute, it's not about the fucking people. People can be moved, land can't. You can squeeze all 1.4B people in there and say look how Indian it is and it wouldn't matter because the dispute is over land.
E: Bolshoy, it's called more retarded geopolitical drama, propaganda by western sources trying to drive wedge between PRC/RU for obvious reasons (i.e. you linking to lol Bonnie Glaser of ex CSIS China Power doing atlantacism propaganda at German Martial Fund). RU and PRC affirmed both sides adhere to common position on resolved border issue, and in 2024 PRC/RU did joint development on the island... you know because it was never an issue to begin with. The point is once India stops FUDDING around fake news and learn some history/media literacy 101, maybe there can be productive border ratification, again like 12/14 other countries instead of living under the delusion that there's a scenario where India gets 100 and PRC gets 0 because the British OKayed it. Again utterly unserious, borderline infantile position to think 100/0 split is feasible.
Lol, what ? Are you saying that all the dozen nations are now happy with the post-2023 Chinese map and India is the sole loner and must educate itself ? Is it a delusion that Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, etc object to ~90% of the South China Sea now claimed, including EEZs up to 200 nautical miles away which also breaks UNCLOS - which China ratified.
PS: Even if we stick to your very strange position of ignoring international boundaries of past treaties because of current government objections, the China map did expand outside of "past claims" - it officially now covers the South China Sea as part of China's sovereign territory. India is not the only objector - as you falsely state.
With respect to land border, yes India is infact the sole loner that needs to educate itself. 12/14 other PRC land borders had no problem settling, again most with MORE PRC concessions. 1/14 Bhutan wants to settle but can't because India. That leaves only India who has this infantile notion that there is some fantasy world where borders can be settled in 100/0 Indian favour which is frankly medically retarded expectation only a child can have. Any proper history education will teach India only way to get 100/0 is loser in war and frequently not even then. So yes education away from that level of delusional magical thinking is apt.
SCS disputees also you know dispute with each other, everyone protests each other and with except of PH gets along fine with PRC. Also PRC position on SCS is legal under UNCLOS. Or rather not illegal. Or more technically correct, can't even be illegal. TLDR useful idiots believe PCA ruling is actual UNCLOS ruling when it's manifestly not (it's basically mock UN US+PH did on PCA stationary with anti PRC cosplayers). UN/ITLOS/ICJ/UNCLOS has no formal position on PCA ruling MEANING ITS NOT INTERNATIONAL LAW despite the heavy propaganda. Since PRC not party to optional arbitutaion clause, i.e. again no ratify no care, besides which UNCLOS cannot determine sovereingty claims so the idea PRC breaks UNCLOS is so retarded it's not even wrong since there is literally no mechanism in UNCLOS to rule PRC claims as illegal... hence PRC is in fact in compliance with her UNCLOS accession obligations.
PS: 1. No again this is history 101, PRC has always had 9dash, which it treats as domestic delimitations, it used to be 11 dash under ROC, i.e. it has always been part of past claims, for decades since post war. CHINESE (PRC/ROC) CLAIMS HAS OFFICIALLY ALWAYS COVERED SCS, PRC formally inherited claims from ROC when UN recognition switched and ROC claims proceeded that. I said India is the only LAND BORDER disputee, i.e. bilateral disputee, 1vs1 which should on paper be much simple negotiation, hence PRC able to ratify 12/14 land border in rapid negotiations. But somehow not Indian, and by extension Bhutan. Because clearly it's the other 12-13/14 who are outliers /s. SCS is a 5 party shitshow and much harder to resolve and everyone objects to eachothers overlapping claims, even then PRC ceding Tonkin to Vietnam makes PRC one of the better actors. So if you want to do the numberes, then 12/14+5, i.e. 12/19 PRC land+maritime disputees are solved, aka plurality. The 5/5 maritime cannot be solved bilaterally and will remain shitshow. The on paper low hanging fruit 2/14 land border is held up by India.
2. PRC is not ignoring past treaties, it's simply not fucking subject to treaties it doesn't sign. The very strange position is Indians believing a treaty between India and UK over Tibet that ROC EXPLICLITLY REPUDIATED AT TIME OF NOT SIGNING, I.E. ROC -> PRC DOES NOT APPROVE OF THIS TREATY AND EXPLICITY NOTIFIED PARTIES AT THE TIME, is somehow a valid treaty. Absolute toddler logic.
Let me address the major point that you bring up. PRC lays claim to 125,000 square KM - most of which is currently Indian territory. That is nearly ~8-10x of any other nation that China settled with - well, excluding ROC (Taiwan) - which China has also not "settled" with. Today, dozens of modern nations fit into 125,000 square KM of territory.
India does not need to "educate itself" - it has had over 20 rounds of talks with China recently and China has utterly not budged from claiming the FULL state (along with some adjacent territory too). It is not India, but China that is not willing to concede. If the dispute was merely ~10k sq KM, it would have already been solved. There are some very good reasons behind China's intractable position. This is extraordinarily resource rich territory that is utterly untapped by India due to constitutional protections offered to this state and its indigenous tribals. China, obviously, has no such protective obligations.
But for India, this state is populated by voters, native elected representatives and constitutionally protected indigenous tribes. There is utterly no way voters are going to even acknowledge being associated with China in any way, with utterly zero Chinese ethnicity present. Full ~120k sq km of a bio-diverse, resource-rich and populated-by-voters living in a democratic state for over 75 years, being utterly claimed by China is ridiculous and does not lend itself to any possible "settlement".
TW is not a territory dispute, it's a unsolved civil war, i.e. PRC is not intending to split territory with TW, like other disputes, TW is winner takes all.
What PRC claims from India is not what PRC actually wants. PRCs offered package swap deal with India for decades (and imo continues to be) with India was "east for west". PRC gets 40k sqkm Aksai China claims it currently defacto controls, basically empty land where no one lives. India gets Arunachal Pradesh, i.e. what India defacto controls, the state. AKA just formalize border at where both sides controls, there's no actual PRC interest in AP the state and the people, because is as you recognized ridiculous.
AP just barginning chip for "east for west" swap, same with PRC claims on Tawang that India + western media likes to play up as some Dalai + Tawang super combo to threaten PRC Tibet succession crisis. Reality is Tibet is no longer a restive region, it's been thoroughly securitized and PRC can print their own dalai lama and rule Tibetians as they see fit. It's just another pressure point because India taking 20 rounds of talks and 40+ years have gotten nowhere leaves no option but accept the status quo - which PRC doesn't want, they want to ratify borders - hence pile on pressure via salami slicing for India to accept package deal.
Ultimately I think PRC fine with "east for west". All China wants is their bit of tundra for G219 highway to connect Xinjiang and Tibet. They don't want some full Indian state and the people and the resources, because that's also logistically ridiculous. PRC is not going to go over the Tibetan plateau to mine untapped resources in AP when they have entire Tibetan plateau to mine.
TLDR Indian media keeps insinuating PRC wants all of AP when PRC doesn't, it just wants the border formalized at current occupation/administered areas (i.e. no mass people resettlement needed). Just ratify borders and stop encouraging tibetan exile shenanigans, same way India doesn't like Canada entertaining Khalistanis. no need to go back to pre dalai lama asylum hindi chini bhai bhai, but also no paitence to wait another 20/50/forever years.
> TLDR Indian media keeps insinuating PRC wants all of AP when PRC doesn't, it just wants the border formalized at current occupation/administered areas
This is wrong. This was confirmed by China themselves. Latest Chinese actions included issuing Chinese names for towns, mountains and rivers in Arunachal Pradesh - continued assertion of demands, even after talks. This includes detainment of state citizens unless they acknowledge to be part of China and get a Chinese Visa. PRC most certainly wants Arunachal Pradesh and also apparently its citizens - can you point me to a single source otherwise ?
There was also no mention in any of the >20 recent talks - even in Chinese media - of any package swap of Aksai Chin for Arunachal Pradesh. Today PRC states clearly that all of Arunachal is "Zangnan" / "South Tibet".
Package swap deals is not something offered in low level talks, it's leader to leader offer, i.e. Zhou Enlai to Nehru, Deng Xiaoping to Ghandi. Modi's been dipping meeting Xi (or vice versa if you want) until last year, right before trump2 and it's been rollercoaster geopolitics. Until India, PRC, US triangulation / dynamic becomes cleares and Xi/Modi relations normalize the only thing boundry talks do is what it always does, maintainence work with some progress towards normalize relations where high level boundary talks can start, as in actual formal settlement, not LAC management homework, i.e. we're past generals talking in tents to ministers meeting in capital, and maybe one day leaders discussing swap.
In the meantime, in addition to talks, the new normal PRC wants to set is to continue adding pressure via salami slice and rachet pressure because PRC isn't interested in settling for status quo (talks) where nothing happens, i.e. India wanting pre 2020 status quota ante, basically PRC perceives to be (decades of) deliberate stalling, so PRC will continue to add pressure so situation doesn't settle into unproductive status quo ante dynamic again. Bluntly it is better for PRC if PRC/India draws blood every once in a while to keep the pressure up because that might lead to earlier settlement than the alternative, drawing patrol routes and words which hasn't lead anywhere. Anything that can move the settlment clock forward.
E: alright really last reply, you can believe what you want. But ultimately, ask yourself, do you think PRC can invade and hold Arunachal Pradesh, through Assam Himalayas. Exceedingly unlikely, geographically logistics harder to sustain than TW. It's more trouble than it's worth.
Tibet is an example of china protecting it from british/indian invasion at the request of tibetans. Funny how we don't hear about that part.
> If China were to get aggressive, we (India) will not be able to do jack about it
So doesn't that really means china is protecting bhutan?
> we couldn’t defend our own territorial claims and have been losing land to China,
It's not really your territorial claim. It's british territorial claims that india decided to take on for themselves.
Lets stop pretending india is the good guy here. India ain't. It's just selfish interests on all sides.
Have you actually spoken to Tibetan refugees who fled Chinese extermination before you arrived at this crazy world-view ? There were 100,000 of them in India at one point of time. Still ~60k presently. Suggest coming to India and talking to them. You will know what true brutality means.
> Lets stop pretending india is the good guy here. India ain't. It's just selfish interests on all sides.
India hasn't annexed and exterminated several hundred-thousand native civilians. China has. Will never claim that India is good, but an objective assessor can definitely know who are the bad guys regarding the conquest of Tibet.
"Extermination"? Why lie so egregiously. It just makes you look like an agenda driven clown. To you people does "Crazy world view" mean anything based in reality and facts.
> There were 100,000 of them in India at one point of time.
I've watched videos of tibetans complaining about racism/violence in india. Does that count?
> Still >70k presently.
Wonder why so many left india? How many tibetans are in china? Over 7 million. Have you talked to them? Wonder why 99% of tibetans chose extermination in china to "freedom" in india.
The chinese must be terrible at extermination because the tibetan population grew during the past century.
Edit:
Stop stealth editing your comment.
> India hasn't annexed and exterminated several hundred-thousand native civilians.
You are right. It's in the millions.
> China has.
But not tibetans.
> Will never claim that India is good
But you just tried. "India hasn't annexed and exterminated several hundred-thousand native civilians.".
> but an objective assessor can definitely know who are the bad guys regarding the conquest of Tibet.
I agree. Those objective assessor are called TIBETANS. You know the 99% who chose "extermination" in china over "freedom" in india.
Agenda-driven clown ? Dear lord, How can you be this ignorant ? That number is actually on the lower scale. The Central Tibetan administration (govt in exile) gave the upper estimate at above one million. You can check several sources - including wikipedia. Hell, there are books written on the subject by several authors. Most third-party estimates at a few hundred thousand, however, if you keep the scope to the invasion and the subsequent crackdowns.
> How many tibetans are in china? Over 7 million. Have you talked to them? Wonder why 99% of tibetans chose extermination in china to "freedom" in india.
Yeah, importing Han Chinese and calling it population of Tibet is 100% nonsense. You are aware, I hope, that the census includes all residents living in TAR - regardless of ethnicity ?
> You are right. It's in the millions.
What are you smoking ? When did Independent India invade and kill millions ?
> I agree. Those objective assessor are called TIBETANS.
You mean the Han Chinese are objective assessors ? Ask a group of people outside of China please.