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Comment by questioner8216 | Hacker News Reader

That sounds really interesting, whether it is done in Rust, some Rust 2.0, or a successor or experimental language. I do not know whether it is possible, though. If one does not unwind, what should actually happen instead? How would for instance partial computations, and resources on the stack, be handled? Some partial or constrained unwinding? I have not given it a lot of thought, though. How do languages without exceptions handle it? How does C handle it? Error codes all the way? Maybe something with arenas or regions?

I do not have a good grasp on panics in Rust, but panics in Rust being able to either unwind or abort dependent on configuration, seems complex, and that design happened for historical reasons, from what I have read elsewhere.

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Vague sketch: imagine if we had scoped panic hooks, unhooked via RAII. So, for use cases that today use unwinding for cleanup (e.g. "switch the terminal back out of curses mode"), you do that cleanup in a panic hook instead.

The hard use case to handle without unwinding is an HTTP server that wants to allow for panics in a request handler without panicking the entire process. Unwinding is a janky way to handle that, and creates issues in code that doesn't expect unwinding (e.g. half-modified states), and poisoning in particular seems likely to cascade and bring down other parts of the process anyway if some needed resource gets poisoned. But we need a reasonable alternative to propose for that use case, in order to seriously evaluate eliminating unwinding.

I am not sure that I understand what scoped panic hooks would or might look like. Are they maybe similar to something like try-catch-finally in Java? Would the language force the programmer to include them in certain cases somehow?

If a request handler for example has at some point in time 7 nested calls, in call no. 2 and call no. 6 have resources and partial computation that needs clean-up somehow and somewhere, and call no. 7 panics, I wonder what the code would look like in the different calls, and what would happen and when, and what the compiler would require, and what other relevant code would look like.

For the simple case, suppose that you're writing a TUI application that takes over the terminal. When it exits, even by panic, you want to clean up the terminal state so the user doesn't have to blindly type "reset".

Today, people sometimes do that by using `panic = "unwind"`, and writing a `catch_unwind` around their program, and using that to essentially implement a "finally" block. Or, they do it by having an RAII type that cleans up on `Drop`, and then they count on unwinding to ensure their `Drop` gets called even on panic. (That leaves aside the issue that something called from `Drop` is not allowed to fail or panic itself.) The question is, how would you do that without unwinding?

We have a panic hook mechanism, where on panic the standard library will call a user-supplied function. However, there is only one panic hook; if you set it, it replaces the old hook. If you have only one cleanup to do, that works fine. For more than one, you can follow the semantic of having your panic hook call the previous hook, but that does not allow unregistering hooks out of order; it only really works if you register a panic hook once for the whole program and never unregister it (e.g. "here's the hook for cleaning up tracing", "here's the hook for cleaning up the terminal state").

Suppose, instead, we had a mechanism that allowed registering arbitrary panic hooks, and unregistering them when no longer needed, in any order. Then, we could do RAII-style resource handling: you could have a `CursesTerminal` type, which is responsible for cleaning up the terminal, and it cleans up the terminal on `Drop` and on panic. To do the latter, it would register a panic hook, and deregister that hook on `Drop`.

With such a mechanism, panic hooks could replace anything that uses `catch_unwind` to do cleanup before going on to exit the program. That wouldn't fully solve the problem of doing cleanup and then swallowing the panic and continuing, but it'd be a useful component for that.

I have not given it much thought, but it would primarily be for the subset of Rust programs that do not need zero-cost abstractions as much, right? Since, even in the case of no panics, one would be paying at runtime for registering panic hooks, if I understand correctly.

I can imagine ways to reduce that cost substantially. And the cost would be a key input into the design, since it's important to optimize for the success path and not have the success path pay cost for the failure path.

> Suppose, instead, we had a mechanism that allowed registering arbitrary panic hooks, and unregistering them when no longer needed, in any order. Then, we could do RAII-style resource handling: you could have a `CursesTerminal` type, which is responsible for cleaning up the terminal, and it cleans up the terminal on `Drop` and on panic. To do the latter, it would register a panic hook, and deregister that hook on `Drop`.

This doesn't get rid of unwinding at all- it's an inefficient reimplementation of it. There's a reason language implementations have switched away from having the main execution path register and unregister destructors and finally blocks, to storing them in a side table and recovering them at the time of the throw.

The difference is that unwinding unwinds code that isn't necessarily prepared for it, rather than only code that explicitly wants it.

And I would expect to turn it into an efficient solution, in part by doing the "store in a side table" approach for hook registration.

Giving special treatment to code that "explicitly wants" to handle unwinding means two things:

* You have to know when an API can unwind, and you have to make it an error to unwind when the caller isn't expecting it. If this is done statically, you are getting into effect annotation territory. If this is done dynamically, are essentially just injecting drop bombs into code that doesn't expect unwinding. Either way, you are multiplying complexity for generic code. (Not to mention you have to invent a whole new set of idioms for panic-free code.)

* You still have to be able to clean up the resources held by a caller that does expect unwinding. So all your vocabulary/glue/library code (the stuff that can't just assume panic=abort) still needs these "scoped panic hooks" in all the same places it has any level of panic awareness in Drop today.

So for anyone to actually benefit from this, they have to be writing panic-free code with whatever new static or dynamic tools come with this, and they have to be narrowly scoped and purpose-specific enough that they could essentially already today afford panic=abort. Who is this even for?

To be very explicit about something: these are all vague design handwaves, and until they become not only concrete but sufficiently clear to handle use cases people have, they're not going to go anywhere. They're vague ideas we're thinking about. Right now, panic unwind isn't going anywhere.

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