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Comment by brightball | Hacker News Reader

It’s certainly not ideal, but as one of if not the largest consumer in the world it does make sense as a negotiating point on trade deals.

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The sticky part is we are also one of the largest producers in the world, and there is every reason to think that our producers will also take hits from our chaotic trade "policy."

(This is in addition to the fact that imposing big, likely-illegal, capricious taxes on Americans is a de facto reduction in the freedom of all American citizens. We are being deprived of our freedom to purchase what we want from wherever we want, and now it extends far beyond cheap Chinese EVs and into practically everything. People should understand the tariffs first as an assault on our personal liberties and only second as a business matter.)

love to support domestic high-value manufacturing by creating an ever-changing and expensive regulatory scheme around low-value inputs

> We are being deprived of our freedom to purchase what we want from wherever we want

Sorry, but that is not a freedom you have in the US or anywhere else on earth. Of course you are right that tariffs on intermediate goods hurt US producers, but your claim that your freedom is being assaulted is laughable.

It is a freedom we had at the beginning of 2025 to purchase goods from more countries with lower taxes, I don't understand your response. This cannot be in debate.

I agree with you that US citizens have a different suite of freedoms than those enjoyed by citizens of other countries.

But it's just factually incorrect to say that the economic freedoms of all US citizens (and residents) have not been curtailed this year.

What are you talking about?

I can't buy anything overseas anymore. For example, used guitars from Japan used to have free shipping. It's now hundreds of dollars.

I can't buy my cat's medicine from Canada anymore, and the U S. distributor was already price gauging, as the American health system is wont to do.

How is any of this make sense? Nothing prompted this.

The American public got taxed while the rich got tax breaks, and his followers are lapping it up.

The thing that prompted this is people fell for it, and he can use it as leverage to get rich.

That everyone was willing to stand by and let him do it (as in not apply real consequences or physically/procedurally actually stop him) is the opportunity that presented itself.

If a criminal suddenly walks by and steals your unlocked car (or breaks the window and steals it), and gets away, it’s a bit silly to stand there complaining you didn’t ask them to do that!

I makes sense because you probably bought a US guitar instead. The goal of tariffs isn't to benefit you. If you want to argue on the merits, you can do that, but don't claim it doesn't make sense.

It is a double edged sword - the U.S. manufacturers no longer have to compete with potentially better products from overseas, they can push lower quality to the local market for the same price.

This is correct. But this creates an opportunity for other domestic manufacturers to offer a better deal. Look at the Chinese car manufacturers. It was Chinese policy to say basically "sorry, you just have to buy shitty domestic cars or pay massive tariffs." Now their domestic manufacturers have gotten good enough that they are exporters themselves.

Is that true though?

Cameras and bicycles are my two main hobbies. Essentially zero US production for either. Prices have gone up, but for no good reason - there's no US industry to protect.

Limited, highly-targeted tariffs can serve a purpose. But the blanket stuff we've seen this year make zero sense at a macroeconomic level.

Yes, blanket tariffs are retarded. However, the point of the tariffs is that it is a national priority to develop a domestic industry. It is, of course, arguable that this national priority makes sense, but the fact that it makes your hobbies much more expensive is not at all relevant.

The Trump trade policy makes no sense and has been horribly executed on op of that, but I think that in the long run moving away from a policy of "as much cheap stuff for consumers as possible no matter the externalizes" will be a good thing.

in the long run moving away from a policy of "as much cheap stuff for consumers as possible no matter the externalizes" will be a good thing.

That strikes me as something akin to the broken window fallacy. Tariffs are absolutely market-distorting and absolutely lead to higher prices.

We absolutely should be leveraging lower cost of labor overseas to build cheap stuff. If there is concern about other externalities (pollution, slave labor, etc) then address those directly with sanctions, targeted tariffs, or something else.

I've yet to see a good argument that overconsumption is bad (in a general economic sense). If we're overspending (not saving, or over-leveraging) then address that directly (not via tariffs). If it's a pollution argument, then address that directly. Etc.

The problem is when the US has to fight a conventional war and can’t make cheap robotic warfighters on the scale of the China aligned bloc

> I makes sense because you probably bought a US guitar instead.

Nope. Japanese guitars are substantially higher quality and at lower prices than U.S. made guitars.

I'm still waiting for you to describe how this makes sense. The U.S. doesn't have the industries the foreign market has.

... the trade deals had already been agreed to...

Obviously deals expire and can be renegotiated, but what Trump has done is just said "deal is off just because I said so, even ones that I myself previously negotiated and signed!"

Do you like to do business with people who just shred your prior deals when they change their mind? It makes no sense.

Saying this makes sense in theory while wholey ignoring how it was carried in practice is a disingenuous attempt to defend the indefensible.

True. But it’s also disingenuous to ignore the massive institutional momentum in favor of unrestricted trade? Throwing debris on the track may have been the only way to stop the train that was rolling on its own towards zero tariffs.

Zero tariffs are good! That's why the US put "no internal tariffs between states" in the constitution!

They’re good as long as everyone is co-operating and has a common idea of ‘good’.

Notably, China, India, etc. still tax the every loving crap out of most imports in their jurisdiction (yes, tariffs!).

I suppose by mimicking them we hope to bring the US to the standard of living that the Chinese and Indians have.

Well, someone very well might - it’s not the common man though.

Notably, those in power in both countries live pretty cushy lives.

Not sure if you've been to China lately, but their standard of living has improved dramatically over the past 25 years (after they began restricting and penalizing imports). The quality of their domestically-built consumer products now exceeds what's available in the US, and costs less. This is what happens when you stop outsourcing and bring manufacturing on-shore. The opposite has happened to the US over the same period, where international corporations (such as GE, GM, etc.) shut down on-shore manufacturing and import everything. In addition to the immediate economic effects, the long term effect is that the US has lost its ability to participate (let alone compete) in many manufacturing areas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_China_(194...

I think that’s more a side effect of China being the worlds manufacturing hub - which has nothing to do with their import policies, and everything to do with their export/currency policies.

There isn’t much ‘made in the USA (actually)’ at this point.

Plenty of other places have similar import policies - and still import most things from China. Like India, and well, frankly most of the world at this point.

I haven’t been recently. I was in Hong Kong last just before the pandemic and my parents have been to China recently. It’s quite an advanced place but they happily prefer the US to China still.

I have a friend I met last year who lives in China and he’s looking to move to Singapore. So I’m not super informed but also I think I have enough anecdotal knowledge that someone showing me a GDP chart won’t convince me life is better there.

But we may go in a few months after we take our daughter to her ancestral Taiwan. Then I’ll see for myself.

Many Indians told me India is rapidly approaching the West once and I went there for a friend’s wedding and they were right but in the sense that Andromeda is approaching us at 120 km/s: it’s fast but the gap is big in standard of living.

So I’m a bit hesitant to believe this stuff. I’ll see for myself.

I think this is an excellent point. Let's say they had NOT done that (and thank goodness they did) - would the current defenders of tarrifs see this as a path to wealth between states too? Me thinks they would. But they why stop there. Why not impose such tarrifs between cities. And if that enriches cities - neighbors should get in on the action too, no?

There is a modern Bastiat style essay waiting to be written here.

The founders' notion of free trade between states created an economic "race to the bottom" that has been hurting northern states for decades now as business moves to lower-tax and lower-regulation southern states. It would be hugely beneficial to Illinois or New York if they could tariff cheap goods from Georgia or Alabama.

"guys actually taxes are good and we should have more trade barriers!!"

War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength.

I don't know why you can't just admit you're out of your depth here instead of doubling down on the dumbest and most chaotic trade policy we've ever seen.

Doubling down when you're out of your depth is the MAGA way.

Trump is using effectively unrestricted powers to impose tarriffs, there is no institional momentum in his way. He did not need to 'throw debris' anywhere.

Further, when he's out of office, I fully expect all his tariffs to evaporate. All we have to do is bide our time.

Trust takes a lifetime to build but just a moment to lose. The rest of of the world is not going to risk the deep dependency vassal state relationship that it had with the USA. Things don't reset like that.

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