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Software on Steam

store.steampowered.com

191 pointsmxfh106 comments

Some people seem to fail to understand that Steam is yet another package manager, but this time filled with only non-free stuff, in a way that has so much DRM it's unusable in any ways but the intended one.

Steam on linux is, I think, a big problem for us. There will be dpkg (or whatever your distro chose). This one will install apps in a way that is consistent with the system, and with POSIX. Then, there will be steam. Steam is used because it is the only way to get apps people want. I do not own a game I paid for on Steam. Not even in the way I own non-free apps like Alfred or Ableton Live. I don't have a right to use them, I am merely allowed to do so.

I understand that it is in Valves interest to lock us down like this. But in this case, their interest is against ours, the users.

Steam shouldn't be a problem for people who use free software: just don't buy software from Steam, same as always.

If Steam convinces more people to install GNU/Linux I'd say that's a net win. People are going to be using nonfree software anyway, so they might as well do it on a free operating system.

Yes. And hopefully it'll add more pressure (and possibly help) to improve graphic card drivers and such.

It already has. Their work on getting L4D working on Linux has already made it so that it now runs faster on the same hardware than with Windows. Source: http://blogs.valvesoftware.com/linux/faster-zombies/

That's just a side effect of their business model - it's fairly evident that it's a higher priority for them to provide a great user experience than to lock them down.

Just yesterday I was reminded of this, when reformatting my computer and reinstalling everything. I forgot to deactivate keys on some of my work software before doing so, and spent hours emailing to get them back. Meanwhile, the whole license/ownership concept of all my games on Steam was completely abstracted away through their install-anywhere-as-many-times policy and Steam Cloud.

One day I hope that I will be able to link all my DvDs and music and films into a steam style library, and stop caring about backing them up, and keeping the sodding disks.

Regardless of horror stories about banned accounts, the steam model is one I find infinitely more attractive than even itunes.

My cofounder lost about a thousand dollars worth of games when he bought Left 4 Dead 2 via PayPal.

PayPal, as it sometimes does, reversed the transaction due to its fraud detection systems, through no fault or instruction of my cofounder.

So Steam locked the entire account, permanently and irreversibly. It wasn't even an option to pay the $50 by another method.

I still buy Steam games, but only on sale.

This sounds extreme. What was the response from steam technical support?

That was the response from Steam technical support.

They were basically assuming fraud; which is what buying a game, receiving the goods, then issuing a chargeback (or PayPal equivalent) would be.

He patiently explained to them that it wasn't initiated by him, but they pretty much stonewalled him.

Apparently having done a thousand dollars worth of business already without incident wasn't enough to get the benefit of the doubt.

Someone else could do this right now. That could be a reasonable startup idea. I’m not experienced enough to know but this seems like it could be in the ballpark of sounding like a bad idea but not being (akin to what PG describes in his black swan essay).

UltraViolet is supposed to be that, although it's taking a while to get going.

I just had to register to point out that your statement about the " install-anywhere-as-many-times" blanket policy is incorrect. It's true that all of Valve's games do this and it also might be true that all the new software (not games) being added will need to follow this policy (I'm not sure). It certainly isn't true for large amounts of AAA games already on Steam though.

Developers and publishers are allowed to add any DRM they want on top of Steam, and frequently do. So you can purchase something through Steam, which can have Securom, Tages, Windows LIVE or any other DRM scheme. This includes limited machine installations which sometimes offer deactivation, but only if you specifically uninstall and deactivate them. So in your reformatting use-case, depending on what games you have purchased, you may end up in the same situation.

Basically, you incorrectly assumed Steam is an alternative to other DRM measures, when in fact it's quite often[1] used on top of other DRM schemes. If you don't believe me, simply check the store pages of most major Ubisoft[2] titles. I just picked Anno 2070 (because I know it has it) and in the infobox on the right hand side:

3rd-party DRM: Solidshield Tages SAS 3 machine activation limit

[1]Among AAA titles that is, I have yet to see it in any indie titles. [2]Pretty much the worst player in the industry when it comes to DRM.

That's true; I don't purchase many AAA games so I don't experience that much. It is pretty annoying having GFWL on top of Steam.

As an indie developer on Steam, I can't see any non-AAA games ever using additional DRM. We're just in it for the convenience of distribution.

I have for a long time avoided steam because of this perception of it being an DRM loaded bunch of crap. Then I had actually done some analysis on steam and found out, that the whole thing does not do anything that can be called DRM, it is in fact really an package manager and framework for network/social functionality. As mostly fulltime linux user and developer I´d rather see software from steam than software using flex-lm (which is the case for most commercial software for linux now and great pain in the ass).

There was a point in the past when you needed an internet connection to play downloaded Steam games -- I think that's where the DRM rep comes from.

But for at least a few years, you've been able to launch steam without an internet connection.

Unless the steam process shuts down unexpectedly, or you suddenly lose internet connection, or your computer reboots too quickly for Steam to keep up. Then Steam will decide it needs to ... validate something ... with the online servers before allowing offline mode. Far from idea.

That is up to the games - they can choose to hook into Steam's API for that DRM, or roll their own DRM (or both, thank you Ubisoft), or they can ship without any protection.

To be fair, Steam doesn't install apps the proper way on Windows either. Start menu shortcuts actually open Steam and then launch the game. Uninstallers? Launch Steam.

On Windows 7 I can use CCleaner or the control panel to uninstall games installed with Steam.

It varies from package to package. Many Steam games are installed with a normal Windows MSI that just targets your `$STEAM/steamapps/common` folder instead of `/Program Files (x86)`, and these packages can be removed using the Control Panel or CCleaner.

There are plenty of Steam packages that use the Steam infrastructure in a much more integral manner, however. These packages (like TF2 or Half-Life 2) are stored in compressed and encrypted cache files, and install only some components into a directory like `$STEAM/steamapps/$USERNAME/`. These packages can only be removed using the Steam application. While package stubs may be placed for the Control Panel to manage, the "uninstall" action will just call the Steam "Delete Local Content" action.

Devil's advocate: DRM and a convenient buying experience mean a lower barrier to creating a business model and getting a paycheck, meaning more software gets written, which is good for users.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like cloud licensing or DRM either, and I won't be using Steam for anything but games. But there is a place for such "software vending machines" as Steam and the Mac App Store, particularly at the low end of the market.

more [DRMed] software gets written, which is good for users.

Actually, you'll find that not everyone agrees. (Personally, I don't have a strong opinion either way)

The most incredible thing about this is that these applications can have achievements, DLC, and even Steam Workshop support.

Check out Game Maker: http://store.steampowered.com/app/214850/

- Different components sold as DLC (http://store.steampowered.com/dlc/214850/)

- Achievements (http://steamcommunity.com/stats/214850/achievements) for things like "run a game on iOS" and "1000 debugs"

- Created games can be put on the Steam Workshop (http://steamcommunity.com/workshop/browse?appid=214850), which is INCREDIBLE when you think about it!

What is incredible about achievements for anything? It's an interesting way to keep users engaged and committed. How is it "the most incredible thing" regarding Software on Steam?

Not to be too off-topic, but this sort of instant nasty cynicism is all that's wrong with HN of late. One of the rules of this place is 'be polite', would you respond like that to a stranger in person?

This kind of reaction makes me not want to read/comment/submit at all.

I'll take the inevitable hit in karma to say my piece. You probably didn't mean to be rude, but it comes off to me at least as very much so, intended or not.

His questions don't appear the least bit rude to me. They are certainly direct, which some people confuse for rudeness, but it looks like an entirely honest line of questioning. Honestly, I'd like to know the answer too. What makes achievements incredible?

It’s rude because avolcano is clearly excited about this premise and rodly is just ridiculing his/her excitement. There’s no objective basis to what is incredible.

Or maybe he's asking why avolcano finds achievements to be the most exciting thing. It didn't seem that rude to me, but then again, I'm a bit oblivious to such things -- I tend to favour the nicest possible interpretation.

"Incredible: so extraordinary it seems impossible".

I do wonder what is so extraordinary about having achievements in apps and how this would be a very difficult thing to technically achieve.

I’ve got: "Incredible: difficult to believe; extraordinary"

He's also misinterpreted. The incredulity was about 3 things: "achievements, DLC, and even Steam Workshop support." When the focus is on an opinion, rather than facts, the result is often rudeness and inaccuracy. Those two often appear together. When you focus on facts, rather than opinions, it's hard to be rude. An example from http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

'That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3' can be shortened to '1 + 1 is 2, not 3.'

Dont you know that it is cool to pass summary judgements and being cynical? Combative or putdown type responses seem to be the order of the day. FWIW I agree with you.

"The most incredible thing" about something that isn't actually especially incredible is by definition not going to be that exciting.

What were you expecting? Each program is actually a VNC client that connects to a server that has super secret Valve room temperature quantum computing hardware and a NIC based on laser cutting OCRable messages onto live crabs?

I don't personally find achievements motivating, but a lot of people do. That same mechanism can be a powerful force for motivating people to learn and gain mastery over software that they might never otherwise have gained.

I'm occasionally frustrated that I don't know how to do lots of things in Photoshop and Illustrator, for example, but don't have enough incentive to learn how to do them. While I don't think achievements would work for me, there are undoubtedly many people in a similar situation for many kinds of software that it would work for.

Seems like a janky way to do things, to be honest.

Achievements for productivity software? Seriously.

Achievements for productivity software? Seriously.

Achievements can be used as motivation, increasing productivity. Makes sense to me.

It's also useful for teaching new features. If you are mindful of the existence of achievements, you might check the list once in a while and see something like "Fast Copy - Use Ctrl-C to copy something instead of clicking on the button!"

The best thing about achievements are that they teach you new ways to play a game (IMO). When I play a game with well-designed achievements, I'm constantly learning: "Oh, I can approach enemies this way." Or they make me try a new weapon type: "Oh, this weapon is effective in this situation, now I will update my default play-style." I would love to have such achievements for Emacs, because I feel like I don't use it to its potential, but I also don't have a good sense of directions to explore.

I would recommend: When you want to customise the behaviour of some command, don't google for the answer. Instead do `C-h f` or `C-h k` to read the built-in documentation for that function or key. From the help screen, click the link to view the function's source code -- if you don't see that link install the "emacs-el" package (using your system's package manager). See what variables that function uses. Do `C-h v` to read the documentation for each variable.

If you like this approach, I've written a guide (http://david.rothlis.net/emacs/customize_c.html) which, at 3,000 words, is half the length of the Emacs manual table of contents.

If you're already comfortable, the next best thing to do is start reading the Emacs manual from start to finish.

You'll soon run across things you don't take advantage of (it was registers and org-mode for me).

Just play a round of `M-x keywiz` each morning.

I can see it now -- BWOOOOSH -- ACHIEVEMENT UNLOCKED -- TYPED 1000 WORDS IN AN HOUR

Honestly -- this could definitely work for someone like me. I'm addicted to micro-achievement alerts

If you use Visual Studio, you can get this ;) http://channel9.msdn.com/achievements/visualstudio

I used that, then I ran into the bug that was causing building to fail, with an error that gave no indication it was the plugin that was the cause. I haven't touched it since, but it was fun for a while. I definitely wouldn't use it for anything that you do for work.

Achievements might work as motivation for some but it can also easily divert attention from work to simply 'hunting' achievements especially if you are competing with colleagues.

With the example of the visual studios achievements (http://channel9.msdn.com/achievements/visualstudio) that a few has already posted here, there are even achievements 'just for fun' that doesn't exactly encourage productive work. For example the 'Go To Hell' achievement for using a goto statement.

Achievements in business apps are getting tons of traction now. My startup has an achievement engine which we've plugged into things such as Salesforce.com

http://iactionable.com

While it is odd, it is steam's built in feed back mechanism. Dev's get notified of them and can track user progress. They use them in games for post release analysis of what users found hard and such. Bringing that concept to app software will hopefully help show which are the 20% of features used by 80% of their customers, or rough spots that could be smoothed.

Just look at stack exchange. It's gamification is part of what makes it so rewarding to use.

I'm not an MS developer, but Visual Studio has had achievements for a while now, including anti-achievements for things like using a goto.

http://channel9.msdn.com/achievements/visualstudio

Makes sense, Microsoft invented the things after all.

Warning: read the Steam Subscriber Agreement (http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/) carefully. You don't own a license to any software you "buy" in Steam.

As nice as Steam is to use, being able to download software on any computer in a fairly simplistic manner and to get reduced prices from time to time, I'm not convinced that giving up the right to own things you purchase is a fair price for that convenience.

Aren't all software purchases just a license? You don't own the product right? The company that made it owns it.

Simple solution: don't use steam if you don't like that tradeoff.

I use Steam currently because I'm okay with that tradeoff in order to play massively discounted games.

There's no way in hell I'd buy serious productivity software on Steam though, because suddenly losing access to all of my productivity software due to some single glitch with my account on their end is just not worth it for me. YMMV, but I'm ok with Steam's DRM on games but not all software.

I've been using Steam for three years now and haven't had any account issues like that. Loss of internet connection, yes - but that's typically been an issue on my end.

It used to be I could run some Steam related software offline, as in no internet connection. I seem to have lost that ability. I do not remember when the change was made but it makes me leery about buying ANYTHING through Steam and there are some games I want that are connected to them.

If I buy a BOXED copy of a game I expect it to work without any other need other than the machine I install it on. This crap about requiring an internet connection is ridiculous. I have the discs, I even have the key still. Yet it will not run because my connection is down or worse their server is? (and yes Steam has had authentication issues)

If you want to play offline you need cached credentials, so you need to have auto-login enabled, and steam will prompt you when you don't have an internet connection (or you can explicitly restart steam into offline mode while logged in). It has worked for me very recently.

Someone on a different thread said that Steam developed a DRM rep due to having an online requirement that has since been removed.

I can't verify this at the moment, but no one has corrected the other poster yet.

http://news.ycombinator.org/item?id=4604431

Steam has (and has had for a while) an offline mode, but it doesn't work reliably for some. If you go through the release notes for the Steam client over the past few years, you can see instances of Valve "fixing" offline mode.

You also have to be online to download, install and launch a game for the first time.

There are some games that require you to be online, but that's not universal enough to make it Steam's fault. Similarly, the notion that you have to be online to download from the Internet seems to... uh.. make sense.

That's a lot different from the DRM claim, I think.

those statements were not about specific games, they were about steam itself, offline mode is very broken for many people.

I had problems in the past but it seems to work correctly now. Has someone a close example of problems with it?

Yes, which is why he wants to make sure people who are considering Steam are aware of the tradeoff. They don't make it very clear at all.

I don't buy things on Steam, but I still use it. I'm just trying to bring awareness to terms people are agreeing to but probably know nothing about (nobody ever actually reads a ToS or subscriber agreement, ever).

I am looking forward to buying hats for my photo editing software.

And suddenly, for me, Steam turned from convenient to creepy.

Nobody's pulling anyone's hand now or was before, but imagine being locked out of your work suite because something happened to your Steam account. And there are plenty of horror stories about whole game libraries lost because of a single paypal transaction (or dispute).

No thanks Valve, I'll stick to harmless Christmas sale games.

In fairness, their policy changed (about 6-12 months back), that if there's a transaction dispute, you're locked out of only the game with the dispute (and temporarily banned from buying new games). You can still use your existing ones.

...in before "why gaben doesn't like windows 8" - he wants steam to be a direct competitor to microsoft's app store, google play, netflix, etc.

I don't think that's necessarily true. I think it's more that he sees the moral hazard in the OS vendor also being the only official store on the platform.

Newell has a store that is essentially competing with and which will probably feel pressure from the existence of a built-in Windows store. It's a pretty easy logical step to take to assume that he is mostly against it because of these things, and not because of some ephemeral high-mindedness about how things ought to be done morally, which he hasn't exhibited in any other way.

That's what debacle was saying. Moral hazard is a term from economic theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_hazard

As an owner of an iPad 1 that is blocked from getting iOS 6, it's tragic that iTunes won't automatically keep the last version of my apps before they upgrade to iOS 6. So as time goes by I'm going to lose all my software for my iPad if I update apps in iTunes. :(

Moral hazard indeed.

There are official third-party stores in Microsoft store:

http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/en-us/app/softonic/e717f589...

http://apps.microsoft.com/webpdp/en-us/app/intel-appup-r-cen...

You really hit the nail on the head with this post. I still like the polish iOS, but Apple proves that there is indeed such a moral hazard when one vendor is controlling everything.

What I'd like to see the mobile space into is some kind of 'commodity era' like with the PC:

Apps

====

Appstore <- Each OS has its default appstore but others can be installed

====

OS <- can be licenced with no strings attached to device. When you buy a new handset you will be asked "would like Android or Windows or XYZ?

I wonder whether there is any market pressure into such a standardization. Why did IBM create PC as an industry standard back then, was it for licensing value? Couldn't this be an interesting model for someone like Texas Instruments or Nokia nowadays? (Player in non dominant position with stakes and experience in the hardware business).

now i can clearly see that why "windows 8 is a threat" statement come.

Whoa, the shapes and layout of the content of the GameMaker screenshots/images brought back memories of Garry Kitchen's GameMaker[0] which I used to make a balloon racing game using the stock sprites from [1] and the background from [2]. The game might have been one of the instructional ones, because now, 27 years later, I can't conceive that I came up with the idea for a game like I remember it being.

[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry_Kitchen%27s_GameMaker

[1] http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/G/Gary_Kitchen%27s_Gamemaker...

[2] http://www.gb64.com/Screenshots/G/Gary_Kitchen%27s_Gamemaker...

I find it interesting that nearly all the software listed, initially, seems to be art related. ArtRage Studio Pro just ended up on my wish list, because that looks like tremendous fun.

Now, if only I could easily install these apps outside the steam folder. My main drive is getting full.

> Now, if only I could easily install these apps outside the steam folder. My main drive is getting full.

The current Steam beta has support for multiple installation folders. It's a little rough right now, but it seems like something they plan on polishing up and releasing eventually.

Source and more info: http://www.neoseeker.com/news/20791-latest-steam-beta-allows...

I can confirm that the new beta lets you select which directory/drive to install files on. It's a great change and let's me start filling up my 2 TB drive instead of my C drive!

Glad to see that is coming soon. I have some symlinks set up in my Steam directory to keep apps on different drives, but something built in would certainly be easier.

I use steammover to move files between ssd and larger hard drive. Works really well. http://www.traynier.com/software/steammover

Even more interesting to me is that all the software present--including the art software--somehow ties into game creation. It looks like Steam is becoming a market to sell both to people who play games, and people who make games.

it is not too surprising, steam is popular place to both get games and sellgames in indie games community. On the other hand I think that better move would be to make it easier to sell games on steam.

used to do mklink to get specific steam-appfolders onto ssd if loading times were too long.

I wish they would split it though. Valve doing software is awesome, but Steam is pretty sweet right now & they shouldn't mess with it.

That being said, of all the only companies I probably trust Valve the most to not screw over people and/or mess it up.

It would be nice to see this potentially lead to an app store for Steam Big Picture[1]. At the moment, I think that's one huge thing it is lacking.

Sure, I can load up YouTube or Netflix in the browser. But the interface is clunky and buggy, the video playback is choppy and it often simply crashes Big Picture.

Adding apps, I think, will make it a must-have living room device for gaming, browsing the web and consuming media. And the possibilities from there are pretty much endless.

[1]: http://store.steampowered.com/bigpicture/

Steam / Big Picture will never be "must-have" for living room use until they can make it compelling and easy for people to use in that environment.

But that goes against the whole reason why they are popular in the first place - the fact that they are primarily a PC game store, and their customers like playing games with the devices typically attached to their computers, like mouse and keyboard.

I really don't feel this is a good fit. Steam is not particularly great software, it's just one of the best ways to get games onto your machine. It has a lot of competition in the general software market, and plus it doesn't really feel like we need another one.

What really kills it for me, though, is that Steam's model just does not fit software. Want to edit a document on your PC, but left Steam open on your laptop? Well, you've got to walk over to your PC and log out first. That's a (barely) acceptable trade-off for games, but for productivity software it's a ludicrous proposition.

I use Steam from about 5 computers in different physical locations, and it never asks me to log out the way you described. I just log in on the machine I'm currently using, that's all.

Oh, ok - this has changed since I last tried it. I still don't think it's brilliant that you can't have your software open on more than one machine (several years ago you could at least have Steam open on multiple computers if they had the same external IP).

It's strange that at least one app in that list has a Mac version available, but it isn't supported on Steam.

Pardon my ignorance, but I'm confused. I was under the impression that you could only make iOS apps on a mac, but the listing for Gamemaker: Studio iOS shows that it's only compatible for Windows PCs. Can someone explain this witchcraft??

There are some rough spots, like on this page http://store.steampowered.com/app/214850/ the different versions are labelled "Downloadable content for this game".

what's steam's cut on these apps? 30%?

This information is not publicly disclosed and differs from developer to developer and is based on sales volume amongst other things.

If I were them, and it would be affordable for them, I'd probably make it 15-20% early on, and 10-15% after a certain amount of sales.

As long as they sell software using their tremendous discounts usually found on Steam, they will have me as a customer. I doubt we'll see any mainstreams applications on there though.

Clearly, Steam's web interface is not fully-prepared to handle non-games. They use the word "game" throughout the store page for all of these products.

Why not? Makes sense. Can't wait to see the deals.

Wow. That was quick. Good move Valve!

So how do we submit our own software to Steam? Greenlight still appears to be games-only.

Steam down right now?

Achievements for software are actually quite clever. They encourage a person to learn and explore more areas and options than they normally would. Thus understanding the software better and getting more out of it.

I'm a bit excited because I'd really like steam to become a general digital marketplace for downloadables+installables. I've blabbed on about it over a year ago http://www.chrisnorstrom.com/2011/03/re-envisioning-steam-pa... but never thought I'd in any way be accurate. I didn't really believe Steam would dabble in TV, Movies, Music, and Software a year ago. But now, after seeing source-filmmaker, and video, the rest might just follow. Valve may one day hold the keys to a digital empire similar in a way to how Amazon and ebay hold their own keys.

Games getting bumped below the fold by software [1] is probably going to make some game devs upset. Hopefully Valve comes up with a solution for that.

I can see there being tension, though, because Valve wants to drive their traditional audience to software, but doing so may cannibalize impulse game buys that might have previously happened from a game being on the first page.

[1] http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1643240/newreleases.png

New releases are listed in chronological order. So a dump of of non-game software would, naturally, push games down the queue.

The Games tab is still ahead of the software tab, so that at least keeps Steam more games-focused than Xbox.

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