Abandoning Ukraine will only save money if the US also abandons NATO. After this the Baltic states are next.
If the USA had been punished in the same manner for its atrocities in Iraq and Afghanistan, would we have had the rest of the disaster unfold?
And we see the end result of this line of thought in Gaza, where literally millions of human beings lives have been irreversibly damaged for generations, because someone decided to punish their enemy at massive scales. And as we can see in the case of Gaza, this is no guarantee of peace, whatsoever. This line of thought has led to genocide and ethnic cleansing at massive scales.
And, it simply does not work. Period. There are generations of new terrorists who want vengeance in the Gaza/Israel war, just as vehemently as Americans do, for the Ukraine/Russia war. These children will only be converted back to peace-makers if their lives are _improved_ by the peace plan, not made worse, and there is a long, long road ahead in both wars, for all parties, to attain that condition.
At some point, making peace means putting aside any aggression-based arguments and just getting on with the program to bring both sides together, to stop the fighting and start the economic unity required to keep things peaceful.
This peace plan seems like an attempt to do just that, so it should be supported. After all, it does contain triggers that will re-ignite the war machine again - and, it could be argued that should those triggers be activated, the war would be more justifiable to the world community, and those who seek a wider, escalated war against Russia, will get their fulfilment if this plan is betrayed. This peace plan would be the first step towards greater forms of punishment - but it works for both sides. If Putin violates the agreement - Russia comes under attack by the entire world. If Ukraine's leadership violates the agreement, Russia gets cart blanche to continue its dismantling of the Ukrainian state. Therefore, the peace-makers must have the reins in lieu of the warmongers, as of now.
(Disclaimer: I've read the peace plan, have Ukrainian and Russian friends in my circles who are veterans from the conflict, and their opinion is: yes, it is far past the point where the aggressive warrior narcissists need to be ignored and statesmen and diplomats need to work harder to re-establish peace between the two nations. I personally feel that this plan has to proceed, or else the entire world is going to see the conflict expand to our own borders. This means the hyper-actualisation of warrior narcissism needs to stop, and civilisation-building economic tools need to be better applied - by all parties - to ensure the region is rebuilt again. Trust must be restored through economic unity, first and foremost - that is what this plan aims to achieve.)
It's not "if", it's "when". Russians negotiates in bad faith, always. They violates agreements for centuries. Putin also lied many times.
West will do nothing meaningful to stop them and they know it.
That is why we should not push Ukrainians to accept proposed capitulation "deal" from Kremlin.
Because the West is guilty of far worse war crimes in the past 50 years, and the whole world knows this. To call Russia to the table for these wars, sets the precedent for other nations to do exactly the same for the USA, the UK, and their allies.[0]
Plus, there's that whole "nuclear annihilation" aspect to consider.
It's not capitulation. It is an attempt to attain peace and economic stability for the region in a way which will prevent the conflict from flaring up again in the near future.
Have you actually read the details of the peace plan, or are you going by media reports, exclusively? Be honest with yourself about this if you wish to discuss it further.
[0] I'm all for prosecution of Russian war crimes, if it leads to the exact same procedures being applied to the USA and its allies. The world is sick of war-monger nations getting away with mass murder.
"Peace for our time!" Some people skipped history lessons. Russia is not winning the war. To give them Ukrainian capitulation is to reward for starting a war.
>> Because the West is guilty of far worse war crimes in the past 50 years, and the whole world knows this.
Typical russian whataboutism. But I bite. What crimes west did in past 30 years? Russia started war in Afghanistan, invaded Syria, Georgia, Ukraine.
>> the details of the peace plan
Nothing there about real punishment russia will get when the next invasion/annexion is going to be.
Just a reminder, russia lost to Ichkeria, signed a peace treaty with Chechen. Guess what happened next? Russians always lie.
Or perhaps you think the USA is infallible and should be able to murder whoever its ruling class deems worthy.
>Nothing there about real punishment russia will get when the next invasion/annexion is going to be.
Untrue. If Russia violates the agreement, the door is open for the rest of the world to wage wholesale war on it. You clearly have not read the terms.
Open by whom? And btw, it is already open, just no one wants to send troops to Ukraine except North Korea.
>> The destruction of Afghanistan.
Conveniently forgot a decade of russian occupation of Afghanistan.
>>The destruction of Libia
Khalifa Haftar, the warlord who controls east part of the country is backed up by Russia.
In other African countries multiple warlords are backed up by russia.
>> The support of Israels' genocide of Gaza.
Russia arms different forces around Israel as well.
And list goes on.
>>invasion of Iraq and the murder of 5% of its population - which still suffers, day by day
5% is another lie, not backed by data. Just one more point you may be simply a russian-backed agent tasked to share their narratives.
Every single day for decades now Iraqi mothers have given birth to still-born children - 50% of children born in Baghdad - because of the US' use of depleted uranium on the battlefield - a war crime if any other nation were to do it.
https://psr.org/resources/body-count/
>russian-backed agent
This is about as productive as me calling you a bootlicker for empire, which I won't do. I'm not a Russian - I'm simply a member of a co-criminal state in the absolutely phony, criminal 'war on terror', who is willing to hold my government accountable for the heinous crimes committed in my name. Why are you not so willing to take responsibility for our nations war crimes?
50% still-born children is also fake considering fertility rate 4+ for decade after the war.
You don't need to be a russian to share RT narratives. Also that is what a russian spy will say: "I'm not an agent" because, you know, russians always lie.
Not the person you replied to, but this isn't constructive. Correctly pointing out hypocrisy/double standards is very pertinent to the discussion, and shouldn't be dismissed as "whataboutism". Making assumptions about someone who disagrees with you -- in this case, the assumption that he/she is a Kremlin sympathiser -- is irrelevant at best and insulting at worst.
Whataboutism leads to such odd rhetorical distractions. This isn't a deal about Gaza, Afghanistan, or Iraq, and the only reason to discuss them is to distract from Russia's military aggression.
I'd rather see ALL war crimes prosecuted - American, Russian, Israeli, Palestinian, and on and on.
But we all know that is never going to happen for as long as the worlds biggest thug nations refuse to allow the people of the world to see such justice.
So, criminal code is not necessary anymore? That is your logic? As someone might escape from the justice, why do we need that legislation at all?
Let’s start with the biggest violators, first. That’s the USA. And then we will have the tools to go after Russia and the others.
What?
And the argument for supporting Ukraine is not to punish anyone. It’s to avoid rewarding (and thus normalizing) aggression and the violation of territorial integrity, a core principle on which the UN is founded.
The main concept in 20th century post-ww2 international relations was the prohibition of aggression to take land. Ending 19th century concepts like “spheres of influence “ that grant “great powers” the right to change borders by force.
A very tenuous position to maintain, given the extreme violations of territorial integrity enacted by other members of the UN's security council.
The world is very complex and things are rarely perfect. We make incremental progress aiming for ideals, but still dealing with the world as it is.
>but my ww1!
Its the 21st Century, we are decades removed from that era.
Again you don't understand what you talking about. There are no negotiations. At all. There is only a proposition for Ukraine to capitulate to Russia: the reduction of the Ukrainian army by more than half, the near-legal recognition of the captured territories as Russian, and so on.
Such is the nature of business, and war is the dirtiest business of them all.
Russia is a nuclear state, and will in no rational scenario ever "come under attack by the entire world" due to the inevitable consequences. On the other hand, manufacturing casus belli again and invading Ukraine in a few years is an obvious outcome.
It looks like you completely don't understand what you are talking about. This plan just lets Russia a chance to accumulate more resources for further attacks on Ukraine. Why? Because there is no any guarantee for Ukraine against future Russia's aggression. Why? Because Russia will never agree with such guarantee for Ukraine. Russian plan is completely destroy Ukraine as a sovereign state.
I am from Ukraine. That is why I am confident I know that for sure.
Also the conflict still didn't stop, I don't see how America is somehow more capable of doing something when they didn't do anything?
But not reasonable.
This deal is an invite for president Xi to take back Taiwan and whatever territory he wants.
- Ukraine gives up everything they've lost thus far.
- Ukraine must surrender additional territory.
- Ukraine has to cull its military strength.
- It sets up Ukraine to fail to be able to defend itself when the next war begins and does nothing to prevent Russia from restarting the war.
- Russia sanctions end, Russia is invited back to the international stage without reprocussuons or restitution
- It rather grossly calls on America to invest significant money and resources in Russia's tech industry as restitution.
I've heard analysts say that Trump wants this so he can say he ended both the Israel/Palestine conflict as well as the Russia/Ukraine conflict. It's a total abdication by the loser of their sovereignty all for a feather in Trump's crown.
Ukraine has been given an ultimatum to accept this deal by Thanksgiving (a US holiday) or lose all American support. Including advanced warning of Russian attacks from US intelligence. We wouldn't tell them the Russians are coming. A total and complete shut down of US support such that Ukraine is completely blinded.