John Callaham: Don’t be a goat murderer* | Hacker News Reader

John Callaham: Don’t be a goat murderer*

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35 points_ikke_59 comments

This is a response to this piece by John Callaham: http://www.neowin.net/news/notch-dont-be-a-hypocrite-about-m...

Pretty pathetic by both Callaham and notch.

After reading this I still don't get what Notch's getting at with his "goat raping" joke. I didn't feel like John Callaham's editorial was that violent.

> After reading this I still don't get what Notch's getting at with his "goat raping" joke.

Lies about other people and their stance. Callaham chides notch supposed hypocrisy regarding closed v open, but notch never said he minds closed platforms (he uses them and publishes on them), he said he minds the PC getting closed off, as it breaks a path to indiedom (which he knows about, since he needed it to make Minecraft in the first place, a 2 years alpha/beta taking money the whole way would never have flown on closed stores, as far as I can see)

The goat raping thing is a strawman, just as Callaham's "notch hypocrisy" is one.

notch never said he minds closed platforms (he uses them and publishes on them), he said he minds the PC getting closed off

I think that's a distinction without a difference. In what sense is an ipad, or a PS3, not a PC?

> In what sense is an ipad, or a PS3, not a PC?

In the sense that you can't tinker with the software (let alone replace it) on-board from the device itself, short of having preemptively forced said device open from a third-party device. They don't provide any way to bootstrap yourself to a higher level of knowledge, or even to a business. And you remain at the mercy of the platform's gatekeeper.

Not so with the a PC.

>In the sense that you can't tinker with the software (let alone replace it) on-board from the device itself, short of having preemptively forced said device open from a third-party device. They don't provide any way to bootstrap yourself to a higher level of knowledge, or even to a business. And you remain at the mercy of the platform's gatekeeper.

Right, but all that would be equally true of a putative locked-down windows 8 device. I don't understand how notch can oppose the one but support the other.

Because the "putative locked-down windows 8 device" is a big step towards removing the open-device PC by closing off that platform as well, and that is the issue Notch has with W8.

I think the ipad is equally well trying to remove the open-device PC from most homes.

Trying...

I see more danger in a drm-only windows 8 than the one comming form the ipad. I mean, the ipad is going to hurt the sales, but microsoft cant hurt the core itself.

Think about vinyls. CD replaced them. But are alive. But what would happen if the manufacturers start to make dj tables without crossfaders?

I don't think it's a strawman, Notch doesn't explain why he's ok with some closed platforms and not others, besides the fact that he "cares a lot about his PC".

Moreover, Minecraft is not exactly "open" itself, it's not open source and even used to be pretty hostile towards modders (even though that is changing, but I don't know how much notch is involved with minecraft these days).

So I think it's fair to call him a bit hypocritical when he suddenly gets on his high horse "RMS style" about software freedom (but only on the PC and only for the operating system). And replying to this by using a "goat rape" argument is beyond childish, I don't think that's a very good way to get his point across.

> I don't think it's a strawman, Notch doesn't explain why he's ok with some closed platforms and not others

Which has nothing to do with the strawman. The strawman is "notch says all platforms should be open (nb: he never said that) but he publishes on closed platforms, therefore he's a hypocrite".

As to why "some and not others", it's not "some and not others" it's "the PC is an open platform, it offers amazing opportunities (nb: Notch got his start from this open platform after all, and it looks like he's not forgotten it yet), I have no desire to see the door closed after getting through".

I appreciate notch's position on the whole thing, but I wish he didn't feel the need to make his point with rape jokes.

(Edit: It's not made with rape jokes anymore. Previously, it said "goat rapist", now it says "goat murderer", which is rather preferable to me.)

Well, at least goat rape is a bunch of notches below human rape in awfulness.

Sure. But goat rape jokes still contribute to an atmosphere where rape is treated as a joke.

Are you seriously suggesting that some things can't be joked about?

I'd suggest that this particular joke isn't very funny or meaningful and in my eyes detracts more from the message than it adds to it.

I wouldn't want to have an offical list of things you can't joke about, but that doesn't mean that all jokes are necessarily funny, and won't make me think less of the person choosing to tell them.

You are issuing the point entirely. Notch is highlighting the fact that Callahan presented a loaded argument: that he only supports open platforms. He then highlights the sheer unfairness of the argument with an absurd and controversial statement of his own: that of goat rape.

That's not a joke, that's a form of argument ad absurdum.

My point is that his choice of absurd and controversial statement detracts from his point. I see what he's doing there, but I don't like it.

No one said you had to.

I don't believe the point was missed, the article could still use absurdity without the absurd act being rape. It was distracting to use rape as the absurd action and weakened the message delivery.

Actually, I think it strengthened the delivery. It made you and everyone else think about it and discuss it. Pretty effective really!

P.S. the iPad spellchecker sucks.

Looks like he read the concerns and changed it to murder. He's a pretty reasonable human being :-)

Are you seriously suggesting that there are some contexts where rape is funny?

Here's someone suggesting that: http://www.thenation.com/blog/168856/anatomy-successful-rape... (among a number of other points)

I'm not entirely convinced that it is ever a good idea to make a rape joke, but I see where her argument is going.

Well, those two jokes, in context, are about how rape is bad. In this particular case, and in Daniel Tosh's case - it's nowhere near as clearcut. Notch was casting around for something bad, and happened to pick rape :\

Yes, that is clearly what he is suggesting, and it's true. Dead babies, testicular cancer, and genocide can also be hilarious in the right circumstances.

However, the author must have decided that this wasn't actually one of those times, seeing as he changed the title to Don't be a goat murderer...

There may be some that are funny even if they are a bad idea and it generally shouldn't be the only criteria. Think at least twice before making a rape joke. If in doubt think of another joke.

Generally they are a bad idea and need to be carefully thought about. You should probably also stick to a few guidelines: the victim of the joke should not be the victim of the rape, it should not be trivialised (this includes inappropriate comparisions and probably the original title), it shouldn't be threatening and it shouldn't blame the victim. If you are not following these you probably need to think about it ten times and consider different viewpoints on it. Those more likely to be victims [women, maybe some other subgroups] (or who have actually been victims) have much more leeway.

Note that I don't think they should be banned unless there is a seriously threatening, harassing or inciting aspect but that doesn't mean there shouldn't be criticism.

I don't think any malice was intended by Notch but I think it fell in the trivialising category and I am glad that he has decided to change it. Being about an animal helped make it ridiculous but probably made the word rape unnecessary. The British 'shagger' or Australian 'rooter' would probably have worked OK although I don't know if there is a US equivalent lighter than the F-word. 'XXXXer' might have worked.

The verb "shagged" would have worked well in this case in the US. Not really American slang, but it would be understood.

I don't pretend to be an expert in comedy, but I would say George Carlin was...

A common theme you hear from just about every comedian out there is that anything can in fact be made into a joke. Nothing is off limits.

Two notes:

* That is not to say that everything is a joke.

* That is an answer to "Can it be joked about?", not "Should it be joked about?".

If you're speaking to a randomly selected adult American audience, on average, roughly 1 in 12 people in that audience have been raped. You're probably going to make a good portion of those people feel even more awful about being a victim -- never mind the PTSD. That should be good enough reason not to joke about it.

Every rape is one too many but these 1 in 12 (or 1 in 4) figures that we hear about, are dubious:

http://triggeralert.blogspot.com/2012/09/the-1-in-12-rape-st...

I am not saying that joking about rape is okay if "only" 1 in 40 women in the audience has been raped. Just that the figures are questionable.

>I am not saying that joking about rape is okay if "only" 1 in 40 women in the audience has been raped. Just that the figures are questionable.

They certainly are. FBI labs, who had every incentive to find otherwise, has discovered that, of every 100 sex crime reports filed by women, between 20 and 40 of them are false:

"False Rape Accusations May Be More Common Than Thought":

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194032,00.html

Researched by Wendy McElroy, editor of ifeminists.com (who also had every incentive to find otherwise, and who expected to).

Along those lines:

This study by forensic science researcher, Birgitte Schmidt Astrup, found that consensual sexual intercourse often produces genital lesions:

http://www.fsijournal.org/article/S0379-0738(11)00563-9/abst...

It's interesting, because the finding of genital lesions sometimes decide the outcome of rape cases.

"Rape jokes are not jokes. Woman-hating jokes are not jokes. These guys are telling you what they think. When you laugh along to get their approval, you give them yours. You tell them that the social license to operate is in force; that you’ll go along with the pact to turn your eyes away from the evidence; to make excuses for them; to assume it’s a mistake, of the first time, or a confusing situation. You’re telling them that they’re at low risk."

http://yesmeansyesblog.wordpress.com/2009/11/12/meet-the-pre...

And goat murder jokes contribute to an atmosphere where murder is treated as a joke.

Seriously?

Yeah this is political correctness gone wild. You can tell a good joke about anything, and you can tell a joke in poor taste about anything as well.

The fundamental difference between literalists and those of us who view the world in a humourous, ironic way is that, for the latter, nothing is off-bounds for a joke. We'll always offend those who believe that some matters are sacred, and the literalists will always annoy and disappoint us. It doesn't do much good for the two sides to argue over who's right, as they can't even agree on first principles.

Personally, I'm fine with goat rape.

Are you also fine with racist jokes?

As long as they're funny. The more potentially offensive a joke, the sweeter the payoff if the teller hits the right note, and the harder it is to do so.

Annoyed and disappointed that people are concerned about rape. Wow.

He's changed it now. He's a pretty sensible guy!

Annoyed and disappointed that some people seem incapable of viewing a subject, and humour about a subject, as distinct phenomena.

I see them as distinct phenomena. I don't think making jokes about rape is literally as bad as rape. I'm not concerned that notch might be abusing animals because of his jokes. I don't think rape jokes are dangerous directly because I don't like rape.

I still think people should exercise more caution before making jokes about rape. It's very easy to get them wrong.

I know ben0x539 can speak for himself, but you seem to accuse him of some form of rabid fundamentalism in order to get a half-baked point across. He didn't make any demands, he just voiced an opinion, which is totally fine, and your attempt of framing him as a dimwit devoid of a sense for irony offends me on his behalf.

Personally, I am not affected much by the use of rape in a joke, except that in general I find it cheap and unoriginal, therefore boring. If someone like Louis CK uses rape in one of his bits, it's funny because he is a comedic genius. Otherwise it's just thoughtless, or stupid even, and possibly brings up hurtful feelings in some people for the gain of nothing.

Try telling that to the goat!

He just changed it to "goat murderer".

I wonder if a "is murder ever funny?" discussion will ensue now...

Here is an argument that rape jokes and "murder jokes" are not entirely equivalent: http://opinionade.blogspot.com/2012/07/why-murder-is-funnier...

That was a horrible argument. In short it said that some people can make rape jokes because we all know they don't like rape. But Tosh... hmmm... he kind of looks like a rapist so we're not too sure about him... no rape jokes for Tosh. What kind of dumb shit logic is that?

Exactly what I thought. Also "We know only sociopaths find murder OK" - while the US still has Captial punishment and people find all kinds of excuses for murder all the time ("he just found his wife with another man", heat of the moment, etc..)

The "Jimquisition" does a great piece on why murder is more socially acceptable than rape in the context of video games.

Good thing John Callaham stopped beating his wife.

Classy response by Notch (ahem). But I do wished more developers would take such a principled stance.

That doesn't work. There is no answer to the question "when did you stop beating your wife" except "I never started!"?

Or if you are unmarried, just say "I don't have a wife".

Yes, it doesn't withstand careful examination. It is almost as though that phrase were a joke...

Depends on the context. Some times it is used as a joke, other times it highlights a loaded question.

When you have a multi-million selling game and a new platform comes along, you don't tell the world you're definitely going to port it. You wait for the 6 figure check to arrive and then port it. If it's 7 figures, you call it a platform exclusive.

Yes we'll see how principled Notch is when they wave a fat cheque in front of him...

Money is the divider between words and actions.

Money is not a huge motivator for Notch... back in March of this year, he gave seven figures ($3 million) of his personal dividends to his fellow Mojang employees:

http://www.develop-online.net/news/40013/Notch-gifts-3-milli...

Given his taken on money — and that Notch has taken a very public stance against participating in helping to close the PC — it is very unlikely that a fat cheque would result in a change of his actions. Time will tell, I suppose.

It does seem arbitrary that only Microsoft ought to treat their consumers like tool-using human beings.

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