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Comment by noduerme | Hacker News Reader

Is this any safer than asbestos if it gets broken up?

Wikipedia says yes: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basalt_fiber

> The basalt fibers typically have a filament diameter of between 10 and 20 μm which is far enough above the respiratory limit of 5 μm to make basalt fiber a suitable replacement for asbestos.

The source mentioned is a basalt fiber brand website, so not sure if that's enough for confidence.

but still it breaks and gets airborne...

This still seems iffy, but... broken fibers usually become shorter, not thinner.

This is the exact way of behaving that facilitate conspiratorial thinking. You could have looked into it. Found sources that covers harmful effects of stone wool. Instead this 'just pointing out' that it might be problematic is lazy, dumb, and potentially destructive.

Ad hominems are not necessary.

The behavior was lazy and dumb, not the person.

You want people to be curious and investigate? Then don't snap at them when they ask a question or express confusion. Respond and show your work and they'll learn by example. Snap at them and you'll raise the temperature of the discussion and make it more polarized and reflexive, exactly the opposite of your stated preference.

And they aren't wrong, inhaling basalt fibers is dangerous and long term exposure could injure or kill you. It's just a different mechanism than asbestos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicosis

See for example this MSDS for basalt. https://mcdn.martinmarietta.com/assets/safety-data-sheets/ba...

> The major concern is silicosis (lung disease), caused by the inhalation and retention of respirable crystalline silica dust.

(NB: I do not know if or claim that basalt fibers are more dangerous than alternatives.)

It doesn't seem outlandish to wonder. Pele's Hair is a volcanic glass, and you certainly wouldn't want to inhale it.

> (NB: I do not know if or claim that basalt fibers are more dangerous than alternatives.)

For what it's worth, the ex-composite-shop guys I used to work with said that basically everything you can make a composite out of is horribly nasty: carbon fiber, fiberglass, basalt fiber, probably anything period. After repeated exposure you develop contact dermatitis to that type of fiber and the shop moves you on to working with something else, until it happens again. Contact dermatitis is just the first visible sign, it gets worse from there. Eventually you're probably going to want to get out of the shop entirely.

So does fiberglass. I would dislike working with the aforementioned basalt fiber, I suspect it's like fiberglass or carbon fibers in that you'll end up itchy later, unless you do a really good job with your PPE e.g. taping gloves to your sleeves.

Hmm I have fiberglass mittens for oven... Should I be scared?

Are you itchy after you use them? If not then you're good. If they're reeeeally old then you should make sure they aren't asbestos.

The problem with asbestos is that, due to its structure, it keeps breaking in the longitudinal direction, making thinner and thinner until it is the size of chromosomes. Physical interference with DNA is how it causes cancer.

My understanding is that basalt fibers seem to be glassy, not crystalline, so the breaking does not happen.

My bartender told me the other night that as long as I have 2 cups of black coffee and some red meat before drinking, it will coat my liver and prevent cirrhosis. I'm wondering if I should have him check out the mole on my arm, just to put my mind at ease. He would probably volunteer to be an experimental subject to prove this glass theory.

The source material is crystalline, but it becomes somewhat glassy during the fiber manufacture, when it is cooled too fast to crystallize completely.

Asbestos is made from some silicates (pyroxenes or amphiboles) which contain long covalent chains of silicon and oxygen atoms, which are more likely to separate than to break transversally.

Basalt also contains pyroxenes and amphiboles, but they are mixed with other kinds of silicates and they also have a different chemical composition than those of asbestos, so as far as it is known for now the probability of breaking into very thin fibers is very low for basalt fibers.

It is plausible that basalt fibers should be safer, because unlike with asbestos, which is made from rather rare minerals, basalt covers a large fraction of the surface of the Earth, so if basalt were dangerous erosion should have made harmful basalt fragments abundant in the environment.

Is it correct so think that the least crystalline it ends up being, the more tensile strength it has ?

No, the greater tensile strength of basalt fiber versus glass fiber is due to it being partly crystallized, similarly to the greater strength of glass-ceramic vessels (i.e. which are made from a glass for easier formability, but then they are crystallized by a heat treatment) versus glass vessels.

While there are glasses much stronger than ordinary glass, there are a lot of even stronger ceramics, which are (poly-)crystalline.

Glasses have many advantages vs. other materials, e.g. easy processing for making any shapes, including fibers, no porosity, chemical resistance, optical transparency and so on, but strength is not one of them.

The glass content of the basalt fibers is useful for allowing them to be drawn into fibers, by being soft enough for this even at a temperature under the melting point of the basalt.

Basalt also interacts with DNA, hence some origin of life theories try to feature it

> Physical interference with DNA is how it causes cancer.

Is there a reference for that, because it's curious. (As in I really hope you have a reference to read.)

I'd thought I had seen that repeated scarring (from being not broken down) upregulates cellular replacement rate, or concomitant inflammation were suspect.

"Long asbestos fibers have been shown to interfere physically with the mitotic spindle and cause chromosomal damage"

[1] https://archive.cdc.gov/www_atsdr_cdc_gov/csem/asbestos/how_...

super interesting. thanks for following up, because i'll read it!

This one <https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC1567289/> seems to show that it is at least _safer_. But inhaling large amounts any form of particulate is ultimately dangerous.

If I become a king, my tablecloth will be basalt instead of asbestos and the flames from acetylene for brightest blue color.

I sure hope so, as it's one of the go-to insulation materials in NL at the moment next to glass fiber wool.

All over the world really, AFAIU. And why not, it's non-flammable, rot-resistant, affordable and made from abundant raw materials.

And yes, you should probably use gloves and a mask when working with it, but it's not carcinogenic like asbestos.

I hate so much working with glass/rock wool that I just straight up refuse the work now if the client is not ready to pay a bit extra for hemp or wood insulating wool.

It doesn't hurt that the treatment to make them non-flammable and rot-resistant is quite benine and that the demand much less energy to manufacture.

What do you use, borax? That's been banned in the EU for superstitious reasons.

I think ? You can only buy when it has already been cured I believe

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