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Comment by coderdude | Hacker News Reader

Wow, big news for Bootstrap. I think Matt and Jacob realize the huge impact they've made on the web development community and the potential Bootstrap has to become the jQuery of HTML. New developers may begin to ask, "should I learn HTML or Bootstrap?" It's not a far-fetched idea because the same question is sometimes asked by beginners when "deciding between" jQuery and (vanilla) JavaScript. jQuery plugins are ubiquitous and are a large part its success. Bootsnipp (http://bootsnipp.com/) could be the start of a "markup plugin" community. Bootstrap has an impressive ecosystem for a front-end HTML framework and I think that is what sets them apart from the rest. Good luck, guys!

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The whole "lets use jQuery without learning Javascript" thing didn't work out so well for the community.

Just a data point. I'm not saying I was right, but I learned to use jQuery first, which then lead me to learn vanilla JavaScript. Basic jQuery implementation (carousel, slider, slideshow, etc) was like following a recipe. It got me early gains. I eventually needed more custom work so I then dove (and continue to dive) into JavaScript.

I can see the same path for an HTML/CSS beginner.

If not for jQuery, I'd have probably never learned Javascript, because I would have gotten frustrated with dealing with weird cross-browser gotchas too much to ever get anything done.

As I learned I wrote a lot of code I'm not too proud of, looking back on it. But I grew to learn and love Javascript and I honestly have jQuery to thank for that.

Writing code you aren't proud of is step one towards writing code you are proud of.

Of course the problem with that is the code you ARE proud of rapidly becomes the kind you aren't proud of as you learn more.

We have a similar saying at the office. "Every programmer hates every other programmer's code. Given enough time, they'll eventually hate their own code."

Given that for a long while many JavaScript answers on SO were 'use jQuery' for very good reasons I can't help but think you're a bit out of touch.

Actually a bit is being kind. It's rare to come across a site not using jQuery. I write a fair few personal scraping scripts and it's very rare I actually have to add jQuery.

http://i.imgur.com/BVo3u.png

no, but jQuery is a great way to learn how to write javascript, because it gives you a good framework of basic functionality.

The handwritten code I used to use for element detection was a thing of evil, that kept on getting cut-and-pasted around because it worked.

The conciseness and cleanness of using jQuery was a welcome change.

I know you're being an asshole, but jQuery solves DOM query/manipulation pretty well. Generally, if you use javascript for DOM query/manipulation you're either really stupid or really smart, pick one.

I'd say neither--it's just after the first couple document.createElement, you're driven to the brink of insanity. No one chooses that kind of torture, smart or dumb.

jQuery has two big benefits for me: cutting down on verbosity a bit, and on making a cross-browser solution possible. For the latter various polyfills solve the problem effectively, but the verbosity problem still remains.

jQuery might as well be a different language, like c++ vs. c. Can you learn c++ without c, or assembler without learning machine code? Sure.

Actually, in many ways I think learning jQuery before learning vanilla javascript can be an advantage. jQuery is heavy on functional programming techniques, list comprehensions, and such-like. As long as you learn well and don't cut corners I don't see any problems with "learning jQuery" on its own.

I disagree, jQuery is more of a compatibility layer. Think of it (in a way) like an ORM for various SQL backends. They allow you to change between different SQL implementations without needing to learn the various nuances of each engine. The same can be said for jQuery, allowing you to modify classes even though browsers implement that DOM property differently.

I've begun thinking of Bootstrap as something like a front-end version of WordPress. It has so much potential to lay the foundation for anything web, whether traditional websites or rich web apps.

I entirely agree about the jQuery analogy. There is going to be a huge Bootstrap ecosystem - again similar to WordPress as well as jQuery. It's kind of a problem for the web when this happens, in that it creates the kind of fragmentation the web should ideally avoid, but it's a reality nonetheless that technologies like this are going to be two steps ahead of the standards.

Just seeing the various Bootstrap themes sites is exciting. When I've looked for themes in the past, there are very few focusing on rich HTML5 apps. Mostly just static websites and WordPress stuff. That's just one area which has changed since Bootstrap, as it's now possible to build a theme around standard higher-level constructs.

Funny you should mention WordPress.

Just yesterday, Joomla, the next largest CMS behind WordPress, launched a latest version, entirely built with Bootstrap: http://joomla.org/3/

That's a not-insignificant % of the web right there that's moving to Bootstrap.

I like bootstrap, but only for bootstrapping my project...or using it for backend/admin styling. Bootstrap is really just a style guide (with some good styles for layout), however if you've got design comps to work from, it's probably better to make your own style guide. I mean, if they could somehow accomplish making this process easier, then that'd be a game changer: basically less like a framework and more like a library.

EDIT a good example: If you wanted to rebuild hacker news, would you start with bootstrap? I wouldn't

You could have a look at my style guide/documentation generator StyleDocco: http://jacobrask.github.com/styledocco/

FWIW, Kickstrap has some crowd already http://ajkochanowicz.github.com/Kickstrap/

Off topic - Does anyone here remember the post someone wrote awhile here about how they got a boat load of hits by basically paying attention to what was popular here and then writing about it? Thanks in advance...

I think I understand what you said :)

LOL - sorry I am drunk..... Dang - I wish someone would remember....

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