Hacker News Reader

Comment by reactordev | Hacker News Reader

And yet they drive away in their GM/Ford/Nissan/Tesla/Any car/truck with its connected media unit and telemetry gathering infotainment systems and think “This is fine”.

View on HN

Hey it's a start. Get people together who don't like Flock cameras and tell them about pulling the modem out of their vehicle and you'll get some bites.

Except when it’s all tied into the ECU and you can’t remove it. Ugh…

You’re right. It’s a start. There’s also https://www.deflock.me

On some vehicles it’s easier than others. Unfortunately it’s a great idea to research before making a purchase decision.

Is local jamming or removing their antennas a viable strategy? Seems like it could be easier to just make them unable to phone home, rather than trying to surgically rip out the bundle of hardware and software responsible for it while leaving everything else intact.

Vehicles differ. Disconnecting the antenna is easiest in some. Removing a fuse is sufficient in some. Disconnecting the relevant module is not surgical in some. Some nag if the antenna is disconnected.

People are probably unaware of the telemetry on their vehicle.

But this is a good point, people get upset when government is perceived to screw them over and not upset enough when the private sector does it. In practice, the private sector screws over the public quite a bit.

Might be logical. The government can throw me in jail, steal my stuff (aka civil forfeiture), or (as we found out recently) tear gas my kids all without any penalty. In some situations, the government decides they are allowed to kill you.

Companies at least risk significant consequences if they start tear gassing children. For the most part the worst they can do is screw you out of some money, which is not great, but obviously better than imprisonment and the like.

If millions of people are being tracked by GM and haven’t noticed, how is it a problem?

Because doing something evil and then lying about it isn't any better than doing something evil and being honest.

Everyone with even a quarter of a brain can recognize that the extreme data collection is a ticking time bomb. This WILL be leaked. This WILL be used to deny people's rights. This WILL lead to financial loss for people.

It's only a matter of when.

This is a weak argument. eg. If I come into your house at night and you don't notice, what's the problem?

If I wank in your soup and you don't notice, how is that a problem?

Most cars or trucks used in the US are older than you seemed to assume.[1]

[1] https://www.bts.gov/content/average-age-automobiles-and-truc...

They have been collecting data since 2014, with some car manufacturers as early as 2010. Also, average age of vehicle isn’t a good metric when a lot of vehicles in the US are registered but never driven.

The statistics I linked were Average Age of Automobiles and Trucks in Operation in the United States. The title said in operation not registered. The sources suggested market research not registration records.

How many vehicles are registered but never driven? According to what source?

The statistics said the average age of light vehicles was 12.8 years. The average age of passenger cars was 14.5 years. And Consumer Reports said 32 of 44 brands offered some form of wireless data connection in 2018.[1] This implied 12 brands or more offered vehicles without wireless data connections.

[1] https://www.consumerreports.org/automotive-technology/who-ow...

Well Tesla cameras don't qualify as public record

"On Thursday, a Skagit County Superior Court judge ruled that pictures taken by Flock cameras in the cities of Sedro-Woolley and Stanwood qualify as public records, and therefore must be released as required by the state’s Public Records Act, court records show."

I do think that's an important distinction though; if I have a camera and record a public space, that's not an issue. If the government sets up a bunch of cameras, that's an issue, whether or not it's ICE, the FBI, or someone else using the cameras. I can't imagine the government will set up cameras and do non-scary things with it.

No need to imagine. There are several cases already of these buffoons in law enforcement doing scary things. The Institute for Justice (IJ) is one of the organizations taking these cases on and who also has suggestions for how to go about combating this stuff. I’m sure most here are also familiar with Louis Rossmann; he’s also been beating the drum on this stuff locally and in Colorado.

Same ones who probably will develop fast homomorphic encryption and distribute it to the entire world, completely oblivious to the eventual heat death of the universe.

For most people in the US a car is a daily necessity so it’s very difficult to avoid that telemetry gathering.

We aren't at the point where it's unavoidable though. Even if we assume that its impossible to dodge random onstar/sirius bloatware crap that probably tracks you, you can definitely still buy a car that doesn't have a 5g wireless modem, 360-degree webcam coverage, mandatory automatic software updates, and ass-warming seats locked behind DRM that forces you to have an online account linked to your credit card.

There is no new vehicle produced today that doesn’t track you. Not a single one.

Lot of new motorcycles don't. Although sadly many new ones now have bluetooth and smart phone connectivity which even if not used can be used as an identifier.

I have multiple cars and none of them are new enough to have that.

They'll have to track me the old-fashioned way, by my phone.

If they were made after 2016, they definitely are tracking you.

Put me on that jury.

"And yet, you live in a society. I am very smart."

Not the right point to take away. The useful observation is that visibility is key to people understanding how their rights are being violated. Unfortunately this lesson is mostly useful to bad actors. If you're going to install surveillance cameras, don't make them look like surveillance cameras (unless they're part of a theft deterrent system).

Everyone was fine with Flock as well until arrests started.

Once there will be a few high-profile cases around telemetry data being used, there will be much more outcry there.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com