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Comment by Imustaskforhelp | Hacker News Reader

> “At what point does legal compliance become de facto censorship?”

I genuinely agree with this statement a lot. Also another aspect of this is that the bigger companies can somehow "legally" do things which I don't think would work but they have so many resources to strech the court case for a long time.

And the fact is that even after that, even if they are fined for some dollars. They are more than likely to just pay than try to actually fix the core issues which effects everyone harmfully except the company.

All for profit smh. I sometimes wonder if there is a word for this phenomenon for how our system has gotten into such a rotten state from lobbying to this yet at the same time genuine non profits get existential threats for the same behaviour but they simply don't have the funds...

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> Also another aspect of this is that the bigger companies can somehow "legally" do things which I don't think would work but they have so many resources to strech the court case for a long time.

A big part of this impression is that people very often very much underestimate what they can get away with, whereas big companies have lawyers to tell them ”oh yeah you can totally do this”.

Of course there are some exceptions. Uber and AirBnB are probably decent ones, in some jurisdictions anyway.

This seems true.

Look at Donald Trump - he failed, over and over again, but he always kept trying. Seven bankruptcies, but he never said "I'm bankrupt so I'm not allowed to do any business again" - he just kept on doing business. And look at the government shutdown - he kept saying the Democrats will eventually fold and do what he wanted, and they have now folded and done what he wanted. This is a man who doesn't understand the word "no" and look where it got him.

Not just him - you have basically every successful tech entrepreneur too. They don't ask permission. However, some people don't ask permission and as a result of not asking permission they end up in jail, like Sam Bankman-Fried, instead of as billionaires out of jail, like Larry Ellison. So it seems you need a good intuition on which things you shouldn't ask permission for, and this has very little to do with facts and very much to do with personal connections.

> and this has very little to do with facts and very much to do with personal connections.

Disagree, anybody would have gone to prison for doing what SBF did

CZ got a presidential pardon alongside giving the president a bunch of money. So did Ross Ulbricht. SBF did not give him money, and is in jail. It's true none of them did the exact same crimes as each other, but there's a clear pattern here. Let's see if in the future SBF gives the president a bunch of money and gets a pardon.

CZ received and served a four month sentence for vague AML issues, the pardon didn’t really change anything for him.

Ross Ulbricht had no connections prior to his imprisonment. His case demonstrates how even a man in supermax prison with essentially no money to his name was able to build good enough connections to get a presidential pardon for dealing massive amounts of drugs.

Personal connections might matter if you do decide to commit serious crimes, but as Ulbricht demonstrates, anyone can develop those connections.

I find it amusing that it's always the governments fault. Or the users fault.

It's never the fault of the trillion dollar industries that are millions of times more powerful than any individual.

Our system get gotten into a rotten state because a tiny number of modern barons have all the power, and none of the civic responsibility. Concentration of money - when money is power, is the same as concentration of power.

What is always the governments fault?

> if there is a word for this phenomenon for how our system has gotten into such a rotten stat

There is, it's the system's name: Capitalism

Noone ever in the universe claimed that this system serves primarily the needs of humans. It serves profit. Now there is a ven diagram that has a union area between profits and needs, but the system does not care about making this union bigger, it cares about making the profits bigger. When that overlaps with needs... it is just a happy side effect.

I tend to agree with this sentiment, but my takeaway is slightly different.

People who would describe themselves as supporters of "capitalism", as well as supporters of "communism" or "socialism", are not able to admit that their belief systems are actually religious in structure. Not spiritual perhaps, but effectively "secular religions".

Both capitalism and its nemesis arose in the mid 1900s, when humanity was obsessed with modernist thinking about "solving problems once and for all". And in that context, the people fell in love with these two "clean systems". A more perfect set of rules.

Sure, capitalism doesn't claim to be the most powerful god. But in surrogacy, it claims to be "the least imperfect system". Which is structurally the same claim: declaring the scripture to be some apex that is not surpassable.

The main difference between communism and capitalism was how it was implemented. The USSR went full-tilt ideologically rigid, and collapsed very quickly. The US didn't go full-tilt capitalism. It implemented a hybrid system with a high marginal tax, welfare programs, subsidies, labour unions, public works projects, along with a market system, and that hybrid non-ideologically rigid model served it well.

Around the time it was clear the USSR was collapsing, the USA went hard tilt in favour of ideological purity in capitalism. Systematic series of clawbacks in the tax regime, privatization, elimination of labour unions.

As they leaned into the religion, it was used against them, much like the communist religion was used against the people of the USSR. And now they have been robbed of their prosperity, of the value of their efforts, much like the people in the USSR were robbed.

Nice read but we also have democracy to prevent things but it still feels effectively hi-jacked by such fictional constructs like capitalism and the lobbying power

Theoretically we should be able to think of the majorities or ourselves and we can have a good system

but we also feel like a lack of choice I suppose, the elections feel between just two parties with choosing the lesser evil (I think zohran is cool tho in the democratic party and maybe he could signify some good things I guess)

Personally I feel like we need to focus more on the incentives and competency of people more than anything and try to vote it on that and not what they speak I suppose.

We don't have democracy because the people with the most money can use a century of learning how to manipulate people through mass propaganda, advertising, pr, spin to get the results they want. People don't form political opinions in a vacuum, they are formed by the messages they receive.

'Both capitalism and its nemesis arose in the mid 1900s, when humanity was obsessed with modernist thinking about "solving problems once and for all". And in that context, the people fell in love with these two "clean systems". A more perfect set of rules.'

All of this is junk. Karl Polanyi famously puts the birth of capitalism very late compared to other important thinkers, in 1834, by defining it as characterised by markets of fictitious commodities, i.e. stuff like labour, land, money. More mainstream would be to point to the Renaissance or british 16th century.

The idea that capitalism and communism would be dependent on an art movement of the early 20th century is quite bizarre, the Communist Manifesto was published in 1848 and by the late 19th century when modernism started to form unions and communist parties were already common.

Actually, modernism is a reaction to the apparent stalling of 'progress', WWI and nostalgia for the optimism of the early modern period. I.e. from 1500 to late 1800s. In part it was also a reaction to what is usually called modern physics, i.e. things like newtonianism and ether hypotheses breaking down in due to Michelson-Morley and early study of quantum phenomena, relativity and so on.

> All of this is junk. Karl Polanyi famously puts the birth of capitalism very late compared to other important thinkers, in 1834, by defining it as characterised by markets of fictitious commodities, i.e. stuff like labour, land, money. More mainstream would be to point to the Renaissance or british 16th century.

Once again, I'm not referring to theorycraft here. I'm talking about the pragmatics of it.

"Capitalism" as an ideological polemic that stood opposed to "Communism" was a concept that society adopted in the mid 1900s.

What you're talking about is some labeling of some social and economic mechanisms.

Marx might have described communism. But when the USSR came to power, the specific brand of communist _ideology_ that was adopted by the government was its own thing, its own creature and entity.

Likewise, many theorists might have described a loose economic structure as "capitalism", but the "Capitalism, Freedom, and American Pie", as an ideological fixpoint that was sold to society as something to aspire to was something entirely different from the academic theorycraft you're referring to.

Hard to tell if you're kidding, misinformed or something else.

At "mid 1900s" Stalin had ruled the USSR for two decades.

another absurd ahistorical comment on HN, where capitalism apparently arose in the mid 20th century despite the long-standing pre-existence of stock issuing multinationals, wage laborers, currency-mediated trade, reserve banking, etc.

The American ideological fixture of Capitalism certainly did arise then. I'm not talking about the general descriptive academic theory that labels certain loose economic and social models as capitalism. I'm talking about the capital C capitalism, standing opposite to capital C communism. The USA vs USSR, the grand battle of ideologies.

We remember that right?

The ideology was born in the mid 1900s, in the middle of modernist fervour where humanity believed itself to be on the cusp of some sort of transformation into a kind of godhood. We had invented flight, we had harness light itself, we had controlled temperature, we had learned how to build buildings of any shape and size. And likewise we turned our attention to a machine for people.

Set up the right rules, and everything else will follow, the ideologies posit.

and yet the largest group of professional utilitarians in the world (economists) largely do claim what you are saying ‘nobody even in the universe’ would.

transitive preference satisfaction is generally a pretty good framework. if you give more people what they want, you get more of what you want in turn.

Free markets are not unbridled capitalism; capitalism needs strong trust-busting and anti-monopoly enforcement.

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