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Comment by troupo | Hacker News Reader

> it is simply no one wants to maintain libxslt and it is full of security issues. Given how rarely it is used, it is just not worth the time + money.

As for money: Remind me what was Google's profit last year?

As for usage: XSLT is used on about 10x more sites [1] than Chrome-only non-standards like USB, WebTransport and others that Google has no trouble shoving into the browser

[1] Compare XSLT https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity... with USB https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity... or WebTransport: https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity... or even MIDI (also supported by Firerox) https://chromestatus.com/metrics/feature/timeline/popularity...

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For me the usage argument sounds like an argument to kill the other standards rather than to keep this one.

Browsers should try things. But if after many years there is no adoption they should also retire them. This would be no different if the organization is charity or not.

> For me the usage argument sounds like an argument to kill the other standards rather than to keep this one.

Google themselves have a document on why killing anything in the web platform is problematic: e.g. Chrome stats severely under-report corporate usage. See "Blink principles of web compatibility" https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RC-pBBvsazYfCNNUSkPqAVpS...

It has great examples for when removal didn't break things, and when it did break things etc.

I don't know if anyone pays attention to this document anymore. Someone from Chrome linked to this document when they wanted to remove alert/prompt, and it completely contradicted their narrative.

> Remind me what was Google's profit last year?

Last i checked, google isn't a charity.

Their products are built on open source. Android and Chrome come to my mind, but also their core infrastructure, it's all Linux and other FOSS under the hood.

Besides, xkcd #2347 [1] is talking about precisely that situation - there is a shitload of very small FOSS libraries that underpin everything and yet, funding from the big dogs for whom even ten fulltime developer salaries would be a sneeze has historically lacked hard.

[1] https://xkcd.com/2347/

To be honest, there are two ways to solve the problem of xkcd 2347, either putting efforts into the very small library or just stop depending on it. Both solutions are fine to me and Google apparent just choose the latter one here.

If not depending on a library is an option, then you dont really have an xkcd 2347 problem. The entire point of that comic is that some undermaintained dependencies are critical, without reasonable alternatives.

Except it's not Google whose "products" stop working by removing that dependency.

The thing is, xslt isn't underpinning much of anything, that is why google is removing it instead of fixing it.

Google does contribute to software that it uses. When i say google is not a charity, i mean why would they continue to use a library that is not useful to them, just so they can have an excuse to contribute to it? It makes very little sense.

> The thing is, xslt isn't underpinning much of anything

Neither do huge complicated standards that Chrome pushed in recent years.

> that is why google is removing it instead of fixing it.

And yet Google has no issues supporting, deploying and fixing features that see 10x less usage. Also, see this comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45874740

> i mean why would they continue to use a library that is not useful to them, just so they can have an excuse to contribute to it? It makes very little sense.

They took upon themselves the role of benevolent stewards of the web. According to their own principles they should exercise extreme care when adding or removing features to the web.

However, since they dominate the browser market, and have completely subsumed all web-related committees, they have turned into arrogant uncaring dictators.

> However, since they dominate the browser market, and have completely subsumed all web-related committees, they have turned into arrogant uncaring dictators.

Apple and firefox agree with them. They did not do this unilaterally. By sone accounts it was actually firefox originally pushing for this.

While others may agree with them [1], Google are the ones immediately springing into action [2]. They only started collecting feedback on which sites may break after they already pushed "Intention to remove" and prepared a PR to remove it from Chromium.

The main guy pushing it didn't even know RSS sites as used by podcasts until after people flooded the issue with examples and requests not to remove. E.g. https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523#issuecomment-315...

[1] Reaction was "cautiously agree" btw. In that same issue, https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523#issuecomment-314... and https://github.com/whatwg/html/issues/11523#issuecomment-314...

[2] Same as with alert/prompt. While all browsers would want to remove them, Chrome not only immediately decided to remove them with very short notice, but literally refused to even engage with people pointing out issues until a very large public outcry: https://gomakethings.com/google-vs.-the-web/#the-chrome-team...

There's a difference between "we agree on principle" and "we don't care, remove/ship/change YOLO"

> The thing is, xslt isn't underpinning much of anything

An awful lot of stuff depends on xslt under the hood. Web frontend, maybe not much any more, that ship has long since sailed. But anything Java? Anything XML-SOAP? That kind of stuff breathes XML and XSLT. And, at least MS Office's new-generation file formats are XML... and I'm pretty sure OpenOffice is just the same.

Let me rephrase that, client side xslt in browser isn't underpinning much of anything. I agree there are more uses in the enterprise world, although i think most of your examples are more XML not XSLT (people really shouldn't comflate the two. XML underpins half the world). I've never heard of anyone using xslt on a microsoft office docx file.

I'd also assume the java world is using xalan-j or saxon, not libxslt.

> Last i checked, google isn't a charity.

Last I checked, Google isn't supposed to be able to unilaterally decide how the World Wide Web is supposed to work

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