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Comment by pessimizer | Hacker News Reader

The guy threw a sandwich at a cop. Is this something that should be legal and have no consequences? Is there a limit to the size of the sandwich? What kinds of ingredients are allowed?

I find it strange that people can go from this man was over-charged for a minor assault to thinking of him as a victim. The man was a bystander who assaulted a police officer - do you think that should be allowed if you agree with the bystander about the law?

Come to think of it, I disagree with a lot of rules about driving, particularly the price of a city sticker for a motorscooter. What can I throw at the woman who works at the DMV?

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> I find it strange that people can go from this man was over-charged for a minor assault to thinking of him as a victim.

Two things can be true. If I step on your toe, intentional or not, and you shoot me in the face, I'm a victim. It doesn't make me innocent of toe stepping, but the disproportionate response was entirely unjustified.

This guy tossed a sandwich into the chest of a man wearing a bullet proof vest, offered to turn himself in, and they responded by having a massive raid on his house that they remixed for their socials. That alone makes him a victim to say nothing of the ridiculous prosecution or the officer lying on the stand.

> The man was a bystander who assaulted a police office

They went to trial for this, and it was determined that the man DID NOT assault a police officer. They tried repeatedly charging him with felony assault, were unable to get a grand jury to agree with charging him, and so instead charged him with a misdemeanor assault, whereupon he was found not guilty.

Do not continue repeating that this man assaulted a police officer. It was definitively determined that he did not.

> It was definitively determined that he did not.

He definitely did, though. That the jury opted not to convict him doesn't change that fact. It's the inverse of the fact that when a jury convicts an innocent person, the person still didn't actually do the crime.

For the record, I agree with the jury's verdict here, but there's no question he threw a sandwich at someone, and there's no question that is legally assault.

> there's no question that is legally assault.

So, in the US, being convicted of a crime requires the state to convince a jury of your peers that you're guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. That's what crime is. There isn't some magical nebulous state where "okay it's a crime even though you're not guilty". That's the point of the system, so we can't get people like you who try claiming he's a criminal even though he's been found not guilty. Because there's no way for him to prove his innocence to you, you've already decided he's guilty and already decided to ignore proof to the contrary.

What's not in doubt is that he threw a sandwich at the officer. But, and this is incredibly important, that WAS NOT assault.

> There isn't some magical nebulous state where "okay it's a crime even though you're not guilty".

So you're saying that juries never convict innocent people? I don't think that's supportable by the evidence.

> so we can't get people like you who try claiming he's a criminal even though he's been found not guilty.

I didn't claim that he's a criminal. I said he obviously performed the act. No need to get personal. As I said, I agree with the jury and if I were on the jury I would have voted "not guilty" as well.

You need to read up on the difference between a charge, a crime, and a conviction.

You are found "not guilty" if the prosecution fails to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt during a trial . This can happen because the evidence was insufficient, improperly obtained, or the jury was not convinced by the evidence presented. A "not guilty" verdict is not the same as being found "innocent"; it simply means the state did not meet the legal burden of proof required for a conviction

What happened is they did not meet the burden of proof it was assault

> He definitely did, though. That the jury opted not to convict him doesn't change that fact.

> [...]

> For the record, I agree with the jury's verdict here, but there's no question he threw a sandwich at someone, and there's no question that is legally assault.

I think you're approaching this as though it's straightforward jury nullification, which (as a layperson) I don't think it is. No one disagrees that he threw the sandwich, but my understanding is that the assault charge requires the officer have "reasonable fear of immediate bodily harm". The defense's argument was that there's no reason to believe the officer was actually afraid.

> my understanding is that the assault charge requires the officer have "reasonable fear of immediate bodily harm"

It's "harm or offensive bodily contact". Fear of harm isn't required.

However, given then context the act took place in, I think a reasonable person in the cop's position would feel fear of bodily harm. He had no way of knowing what was being thrown at him, he would only know that an object was thrown. Even if he had time to recognize the object was sandwich-shaped and in a sandwich wrapper, he wouldn't know what the object really was.

> there's no question he threw a sandwich at someone, and there's no question that is legally assault.

It's not assault

It is. In the US legal system, intentional unwanted physical contact is "assault". This was obviously unwanted physical contact.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/assault

That said, this is exceptionally minor in nature, and the reason I would have decided with the majority of the jury is because the consequences that the guy already incurred as a result of his actions seem proportional to me. Additional legal consequences seem to me to be politically motivated overkill and so not acceptable.

Did you read your own link?

> Assault is generally defined as an intentional act that puts another person in reasonable apprehension of imminent harmful or offensive contact

The latter part is what the jury and everyone disagreed about. There's no reasonable apprehension of imminent harmful or offensive contact from someone who is drunk, threw a sandwich at you, and ran away.

The consequences should be exactly what they would be if you threw them at a non-cop, equality under the law and all that.

So probably "closer to two figures than four" civil infraction of some sort in this case.

You don't think that attacking police officers should be criminal? You don't think that attacking people should be criminal? You not only think you should be allowed to throw sandwiches at cops, but sandwiches at me, too?

I think weakening the protection against law enforcement being assaulted raises the likelihood that law enforcement will instantly react with violence under any vague threat.

edit: I warn that if you, a stranger who doesn't like me, throws something at me, you're going to be looking at more than a fine, immediately. I'm black, if every racist on the street gets one sandwich I'd be able to open a sandwich shop.

> me, lightly touching miette with the side of my foot: miette move out the of way please so I don’t trip on you

> miette, her eyes enormous: you KICK miette? you kick her body like the football? oh! oh! jail for mother! jail for mother for One Thousand Years!!!!

(Via @TriciaLockwood)

>You not only think you should be allowed to throw sandwiches at cops, but sandwiches at me, too?

We all get sandwiches, comrade

>I think weakening the protection against law enforcement being assaulted raises the likelihood that law enforcement will instantly react with violence under any vague threat.

Without asymmetrical law there is less incentive for baseless escalation, not more.

I certainly wouldn't blame anyone for throwing a sandwich at you, and wouldn't argue with someone who would think it justified.

The man was prosecuted and the jury found him not guilty.

I would be curious to know what their reasoning was.

I think mine would be that since these agents seem to face absolutely no consequences for their far more egregious actions. Why should something so minor result in jail time. To be clear, I’m not talking about their lawful actions. I’m talking about them assaulting and abusing people and excessive use of force that’s been captured on camera all across the country.

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