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Comment by fhd2 | Hacker News Reader

For me, the power of Emacs is mainly that I can do everything with the keyboard, which is not only much faster, but also - to me - much more enjoyable than going through visual menus with the mouse.

For someone not good with the keyboard, it's probably a nightmare. I suppose it's good for power users and terrible for casual users, and I don't know if there's any way to really build one user interface that works equally well for both, it's usually a compromise.

The next best thing I love about Emacs is that I can do anything conceivable with code. This one is an even larger gap between power users and casual users.

I think tools like that are just fated to only attract a select few.

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When I got into emacs 20+ years ago the "use only the keyboard" thing was a huge point of pride and to this day I don't understand why. Who cares? I use emacs because I can code the entire environment.

Fundamentally the mouse is just a form of modal editing. Emacs supports this in spades of course, and god-mode is my modal input minor mode of choice, but clicking to jump to a position on screen can often be a lot faster than I search or avy-jump commands, say nothing about how much gentler on the wrist it is. Then you can customize the menus and toolbar icons so you can be 1-2 clicks away from something that would otherwise require a chorded keypress or worse, an M-x command.

Then you have the biggest benefit of using the mouse: scrolling around reading code or text while having a drink or snack in the other hand. These days I use a trackball in my left hand. Regardless, the keyboard vs mouse thing always struck me as one of the many dumb flamewars that tech people engage in.

> Regardless, the keyboard vs mouse thing always struck me as one of the many dumb flamewars that tech people engage in.

Certainly. I wouldn't argue that text editing speed is a relevant bottleneck in software development, actually. To me it's enjoyable and that's a big factor in my productivity, but that's just me.

My point was mainly that the keyboard (efficient use is difficult to learn) vs mouse (arguably easier to learn) is just one example of why the current desktop metaphor won over something I'd say is designed for heavy keyboard use (even if usable without it). The "code the entire environment" thing you mention is another example. Not sure I expressed that point all that well, rereading my comment it almost looks as if I'm trying to start a flame war :D

> My point was mainly that the keyboard (efficient use is difficult to learn) vs mouse (arguably easier to learn) is just one example of why the current desktop metaphor won over something I'd say is designed for heavy keyboard use (even if usable without it).

This comparison of the mouse and keyboard seems to have programmer tunnel vision. Anything involving layout, graphs, media editing (audio, video, image), 3D modeling, and drawing I think we can all agree are better served by the mouse (in tandem with the keyboard). It's really the mouse and keyboard together that's made the computer such a successful creative medium. Programming seems to me like a bit of anomaly in that it's one of the few creative tasks that doesn't benefit greatly from a mouse.

There’s the acme editor for a truly nice usage of the mouse. Even emacs make a better usage of the mouse than most editors.

I think this largely misses the point. It isn't about which out of keyboard vs mouse is objectively better or faster. It's about subjective comfort. If a system "feels" nicer to use then I'll feel more motivated while using it which means I'll use it more and be more productive, and that's a sufficiently good reason to prefer one over the other. For me, that means using the keyboard and not the mouse.

> Who cares?

People with RSI from constantly reaching for a mouse.

I have been coding for so long now that I can't have my keyboard any higher than my lap. I code with it resting directly on my legs. A mouse is right out. Any higher, and my hands turn to clubs.

I love emacs because I can do everything with the keyboard. It is faster and a lot easier on your body long term. My advice, start young. Keep your keyboard directly on your lap and use a ortholinear plank keyboard so your fingers don't have as far to travel. I was skeptical at first, but I will never go back.

Ah, like my eMacs pinky and thumb? ;)

I literally went to an orthopedic specialist recently for overuse of the left alt key causing me pretty notable pain in my thumb.

An ergonomic keyboard can help. I like the Kinesis Advantage but it's expensive for a keyboard.

As the sibling comment put it, that’s when I look into ergonomics accessories.

My primary mouse is a trackball one, because I have pain in my arm (elbow and shoulder) when I use a regular one on a desk.

I will maybe get a split keyboard in the future. But I did get a mechanical one because of key travel. And I touch type, so I spend less time on the keyboard itself.

Alternate between using the left and right Alt keys. The ergonomist's rule of thumb (no pun intended) is to use both halves of the keyboard. So if pressing Alt-x, use the right Alt button, etc.

I had RSI issues early in my career and this advice alone really helped. Never got the Emacs pinky/thumb. I recently switched to a MacOS and that is giving me thumb issues with the overuse of the Meta button. I now consciously have to force myself to use a different finger when pressing Meta.

Always remember: You have five fingers - no need to keep using the same one/two fingers to press Ctrl or Alt. It will take time getting your brain used to using other fingers for this purpose.

Oh, and yes: Definitely got lots of ergonomic pains due to mouse use. In fact, I changed my career from "regular" engineering to SW engineering partially to avoid having to use a mouse (e.g. CAD SW). And every ergonomist you'll meet will tell you "Memorize keyboard shortcuts and avoid the mouse as much as possible."

Yes, I’m also on a Mac (for now), and I do make fairly minimal use of my mouse. My problem is defeating years of muscle memory

Ah yes, stop Repetitive Stress Injury by reducing variation and increasing repetitive motions.

This is the thing people forget about emacs - it is primarily a lisp environment, entirely programmable. Something one can make their very own. Nothing else comes quite as close, even if the keyboard ergonomics (at least for me) do help to sell it. You can change the workspace to better the workflow in real time, that's the biggest selling feature.

And this is why, even though it is a better OS environment my grandmother will never use it.

And because emacs is under socialized and under adopted the emacs user will still have to use notion or outlook or whatever corporate security requires.

I'm not going to argue that emacs if "for everyone" and there's plenty in my own life that I'm happy to accept defaults in. But that said, it's not that hard to glue emacs onto existing tools if needed. If you're in a situation where you can only send emails on a locked down email client you can still script the client through emacs and some glue code. On MacOS, Apple script does wonders and for Windows there's AutoHotKey. Linux obviously is infinitely malleable.

To be fair to corporate, Emacs has a pretty terrible security model.

There's no reason a program like Emacs couldn't exist which had something like capabilities baked in, but as it is, every package has access to anything it wants.

Use what works for you.

My few cents:

Pretty much every ergonomist will tell you that mouse use causes more ergonomic pains than keyboard use. They literally tell you to memorize as many keyboard shortcuts as possible.

> but clicking to jump to a position on screen can often be a lot faster than I search

It can be, but is it the norm? I have a distinct memory - over 15 years ago - of reading a blog post that recommended isearch to move the cursor and realizing how right it was. I suppose not everyone agrees.

> say nothing about how much gentler on the wrist it is

A bad mouse is as bad as bad posture on the keyboard. You only realize this once you're in pain. Not everyone reaches the point of pain.

> say nothing about how much gentler on the wrist it is

You should not be moving your wrist! Move your whole arm. Once again, one realizes this only when you're in pain. Not everyone reaches the point of pain.

> Then you can customize the menus and toolbar icons so you can be 1-2 clicks away from something that would otherwise require a chorded keypress or worse, an M-x command.

The same argument works for keyboard. If you're going the route of customizing the menu for particular commands, you can also customize the keyboard to minimize the keystrokes for those commands (e.g. via hydra).

> Pretty much every ergonomist will tell you that mouse use causes more ergonomic pains than keyboard use. They literally tell you to memorize as many keyboard shortcuts as possible.

Right but that's because their advice is tailored around the "average" computer usage, which is lots of mousing to click around in buried menus and hunting and pecking on the keyboard. RSI is just what it says: Repetitive Stress Injury. The best palliative for RSI is to stop repetitively stressing the same tendons and ligaments. So that means breaking up your keyboarding with some mousing. Alternating which finger and which hand you use. Getting up and stretching and taking breaks. Maybe using some dictation in lieu of using an input device.

If you're writing text, your mousing is mostly going to be scrolling, unlike doing something like CAD or design or illustration. In that context, the context of using emacs, mousing is fine.

And realistically, for my own RSI, exercise was the real solution. Rock climbing increased the blood flow to my wrists significantly. That's probably the only real solution to RSI.

this blog post?

https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/effective-emacs

Get in the habit of using Ctrl-r (isearch-backward) and Ctrl-s (isearch-forward) for moving around in the document. Whenever you need to jump the cursor backward or forward more than about 5 lines, and you can see the target location, you should be using i-search.

To do it effectively, you don't necessarily need to search for the exact word where you want to put the cursor. Let your eye defocus slightly and take in the whole paragraph or region around the target point, and choose a word that looks reasonably unique or easy to type. Then i-search for it to navigate to it. You may need to hit Ctrl-r or Ctrl-s repeatedly if your anchor word turns out not to be unique. But Emacs will highlight all the matches, so if there are more than a couple of them, Ctrl-g out of the search and choose another anchor word.

It's difficult to overemphasize how powerful this technique is, once you've mastered it. Mastering it simply requires that you do it repeatedly until your fingers do it "automatically". Emacs eventually becomes like an extension of your body, and you'll be performing hundreds of different keystrokes and mini-techniques like this one without thinking about them. It's comparable to the hundreds of subtle techniques you acquire for driving a car well.

Using the mouse too much gives you RSI syndrome. Frankly, using Vim (or neovim nowadays) over Emacs is even better for preventing that...

There's a ton of comments here saying the keyboard is more ergonomic than the mouse, I've never heard that before and it feels wrong on its face (it's called repetitive strain injury, using multiple forms of input should helpful).

But generally, please if you believe this provide some kind of source.

It's one of the oldest forms of "programmer identity" out there, one of those shibboleths that people who culturally identify as a hacker express that's independent of its factuality. A bit of a precursor to social media which elevates in group shibboleths over data as a matter of course. Programmers were the first to invent and use social media after all.

You can do everything with mouse (or touchscreen). Lets start with these:

  (xterm-mouse-mode 1)
  (global-set-key (kbd "<mouse-5>") 'scroll-up-command)
  (global-set-key (kbd "<mouse-4>") 'scroll-down-command) 
  (global-set-key (kbd "<wheel-up>") 'scroll-up-command)
  (global-set-key (kbd "<wheel-down>") 'scroll-down-command)

> The next best thing I love about Emacs is that I can do anything conceivable with code.

you already could though, no? emacs didnt allow you to execute lisp for the first time

It is more than just that it uses lisp. I do like that, and I think it is the correct choice. But it is more that even something as basic "move cursor down" is not tied directly to a specific key. And the help system will literally take you to the source for any command, if you ask it to. (Takes some setup for this to work down to the c source, but it is there.)

Is a bit like having a problem with "ls" and wondering if you could fix it by scanning the source real quick. In emacs, that is often just a keystroke away. In most systems, good luck.

Believe or not, you can go 100% keyboard-only even on Windows. I had a friend, Win server admin (big Microsoft fun), who wasn't using mouse at all.

You can but that doesn't neccesarily mean you should.

I tried it for a while, after seeing my Eve Online friend skipping through tasks at a rate of knots without any mouse movement. My god the amount of tab pressing I had to do to get anything done was crippling. I might have to jump through 15 times to get to something that would take me less than a second to click.

Which is why most programs support alt-hotkeys.

Right, but not all, which is what makes unplugging your mouse from Windows painful. On Linux, I often forget to plug my mouse in and only notice when I want to play a game or something.

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