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thesuperbigfrog

Who is still using these machines? Genuine question, not trolling.

It looks like the last machines of each architecture were released:

Alpha in 2007

HP-PA in 2008

m68k in pre-2000 though derivatives are used in embedded systems

sh4 in 1998 (though possible usage via "J2 core" using expired patents)

This means that most are nearly 20 years old or older.

Rust target triples exist for:

m68k: https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/platform-support/m68... and https://doc.rust-lang.org/nightly/rustc/platform-support/m68... both at Tier 3.

(Did not find target triples for the others.)

If you are using these machines, what are you using them for? (Again, genuinely curious)

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Debian just cut i386, Wikipedia says the i386 was discontinued in 2007. These systems are all of the same vintage, so it does not seem a huge leap to be culled from the support list.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I386

i386 (32 bit) only processors we discontinued but 64bit processors can operate in 32bit mode so toolchain was still widely available and there was still demand for i386 OS that would run on modern hardware in i386 mode for some ancient software.

Yeah, and you can still run i386 binaries on widely available amd64 CPUs. So this is an even stronger argument for killing these other obsolete platforms.

You can only run the binaries if you have the libc to run them.

You say that like it is a higher or even comparable barrier to having alpha/m68k/sh4 hardware; it isn't.

Uh? I don't understand what you're saying.

The actual Intel 80386 processor was discontinued in 2007, but the i386 architecture -- ia32, 32-bit x86 -- lived on for longer in the semi-mainstream (there were 32-bit Intel Atoms introduced to the market as late as 2012, AMD Geodes were sold until at least 2019, and I believe some VIA C3/C7 derivatives made it into the 2010s as well) and is in fact still in production to this day for the embedded and industrial markets (Vortex86, etc).

All of those are i586 or i686 though right? AMD Geode LX is the only i586 CPU produced in the last 15 years.

Everything else is at least i686 and Rust has perfectly adequate i686 support.

Is there any major distro left with pre i686 support?

Debian's i386 is actually i686 I believe.

> Who is still using these machines? Genuine question, not trolling.

Either legacy systems (which are most certainly not running the current bleeding-edge Debian) or retro computing enthusiast.

These platforms are long obsolete and there are no practical reasons to run them besides "I have a box in the corner that's running untouched for the last 20 years" and "for fun". I can get a more powerful and power efficient computer (than any of these systems) from my local e-waste recycling facility for free.

It’s usually a loud minority of trolls or hobbyists. It just takes one to spark a doubt.

Here is one famous example of a dude who’s managed to get PRs merged in dozens of packages, just to make them compatible with ancient versions of nodejs https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44831811

Wow that was an interesting read. I find it amusing that nobody seems to really know who he is or what his motives are, yet his code is run on millions of machines every day.

There’s hobbyists using m68k Macs, Amigas, and Atari STs. Definitely a small niche, and those running Linux on those machines more so.

Sure, but almost nobody uses or wants modern linuxes on those machines. It's almost always described (in their own words) as "some ancient crusty version of Debian"

Nobody wants to play games on Linux given the small userbase compared to Windows. Yet people work on it.

You could make this argument for so many usecases but apparently people just enjoy bashing retrocomputing here.

> Nobody wants to play games on Linux given the small userbase compared to Windows.

According to the last Steam survey, 3% of players use Linux. Steam has 130 million active players, so that means there are 4 million people playing on Linux. Definitely not "nobody", and way bigger than the whole retrocomputing community.

By the way, I am also one of those retrocomputing guys, I have a Pentium 2 running Windows 98 right here. IMHO, trying to shoehorn modern software on old hardware is ridiculous, the whole point of retro hardware is using retro software.

> Who is still using these machines? Genuine question, not trolling.

Well, there are so many things were you could argue about the relevance of a userbase.

If the size of a userbase would be the only argument, Valve could just drop support for the Linux userbase which is just 2-3% of their overall userbase.

Not your point, but Linux compatibility is Valve protecting themselves from the existential risk that is a capricious Microsoft. At one point, it seemed Microsoft was trying to make the Microsoft Store be the mechanism for distributing all software. Linux being viable for gaming is/was their safety net to avoid being locked out from the ecosystem.

Are there even close to 2% of Debian users using a DEC Alpha?

popcon.debian.org reports 3 alpha installations and 261750 amd64 installations. Assuming comparable opt-in rates there are less than 0.002% of the users using alpha.

The other mentioned architectures hppa, m68k and sh4 are at a similar level.

Valve isn't a good example. They have strong Linux support so they can sell Steamdecks without licensing with Microsoft. Without their work on Proton, Steam effectively lives or dies by the will of Microsoft.

people enjoy running vintage stuff, and running modern stuff on some vintage thing is kinda cool.

But yeah, those can figure out how to keep their own port

Think about any time a computer is used in something designed to last 30+ years.

Cars, airplanes, construction equipment, etc.

I am pretty sure that those machines are not running Debian.

And almost certainly not whatever the next stable release of Debian is.

You'd be surprised.

Even if they are, they are not updating to latest Debian stable.

I mean they can't in the first place, because ports only have unstable available

They try if they are internet connected

Why not? How do you know that? Debian is used pretty widely

they might run Debian but not upstream Debian/stable

you mainly find that with systems needing certification

this are the kind of situations where having a C language spec isn't enough but you instead need a compiler version specific spec of the compiler

similar they tend to run the same checkout of the OS with project specific security updates back-ported to it, instead of doing generic system updates (because every single updates needs to be re-certified)

but that is such a huge effort that companies don't want to run a full OS at all. Just the kernel and the most minimal choice of packages you really need and not one more binary then that.

and they might have picked Debian as a initial source for their packages, kernel etc. but it isn't really Debian anymore

You would be wrong. People want new software

If we are talking about embedded control systems no, you don't want new software, you want your machine to do what is supposed to do. At my workplace we have some old VME crates running VxWorks, and nobody is gonna update those to the latest Linux distro.

This is incorrect. Internet connections and 3rd party integrations have changed this view of “the software doesn’t need to change once it leaves the factory”.

John Deere, Caterpillar, etc are leaning heavily into the “connected industrial equipment” world. GE engines on airplanes have updatable software and relay telemetry back to GE from flights.

The embedded world changed. You just might have missed it if your view is what shipped out before 2010.

My experience is in big scientific experiments like particle accelerators, I guess other fields are different. Still, my experience is that:

1) The control network is air gapped, any kind of direct Internet connection is very much forbidden.

2) Embedded real-time stuff usually runs on VxWorks or RTEMS, not Linux. If it is Linux, it is an specialized distro like NI Linux.

3) Anything designed in the last 15 years uses ARM. Older systems use PowerPC. Nobody has used Alpha, HPPA, SH4 or m68k in ages. So if you really want to run Debian on it, just go ahead and use Armbian.

Yes, you are out of touch with what has happened with embedded. Companies love internet connected things, especially big industrial things.

It’s absolutely terrible for security but remote visibility into how your 100 ton haul truck is operating via some cloud API is what people like and keep buying.

No air gap, just hooked up to a cell phone network with maybe a VPN if you’re lucky. Either way, the kernel is handling packets directly from the Internet and keeping the kernel up to date is critical.

I don't think those systems can/should be updated using apt though.

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