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Comment by r14c | Hacker News Reader

We know how to cure addiction though, and its really low tech. People (and rats) with adequate social lives and decent living conditions are able to consistently overcome addiction. In fact, addiction has come to be understood as a coping mechanism for living in an unpleasant environment. Imo the issue with phones is really a symptom of our lack of leisure time, pleasant outside settings, and affordable third places.

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It helps, but many prefer the phonecrack despite having access to all that.

IMO it could be a matter of perspective.

I think a lot of people turn to phonecrack instead of their social lives because they think phonecrack is their social lives. They've been told it's good, it's community, it's social.

And maybe it was at one point. But it's not anymore. There are no social media sites left, only media sites.

It’s very obviously not that simple.

It seems that simple to me.

Do you have a rationalisation for your disagreement, or is this a throw away comment you don't care about?

There is a new book by Owen Flanagan ”What is it like to be an addict”[0] where he goes through the phenomenon of addiction from many different angles and argues that rat park type findings are true but only give partial view to the problem. His view is that it is very multifaceted subject and can’t be understood or tackled with any one easy fix.

[0]https://academic.oup.com/book/59281

Idk what part of "make society affordable for everyone and ensure that everyone has access to adequate care and social support" sounds like an easy fix.

That’s a good goal and I think we should aim for that regardless if it fixes addiction. I would not call it easy though. And would it be world without addicts? There are plenty of well connected rich social happy folks who can’t handle simple molecules. Environment is part of the usage pattern but it’s not the only thing. That’s the books point I gather.

You have taken the point someone else made and run somewhere else with it, so I will reiterate it.

> People (and rats) with adequate social lives and decent living conditions are able to consistently overcome addiction

I don't think it's about riches, or power, or having friends. It is purely about how many stressors you have to deal with, how often and with how much reprieve you have available. More money can give more reprieve, it usually means more stressors too.

The more subtle point I guess is that it is not how much you have, it is the shape of your life and how each day feels.

Use the example of far northern countries. People who live in dark countries drink more, and they drink even more the darker it gets. The modern era says that the answer should be more mindfulness, more cognitive behavioural therapy, I think GP is saying we should be giving them sunlight which is clearly what they actually need. Substitute sunlight for whatever thing your locale is currently not managing well.

I recommend the book and the new research. It reflects on the rat park study and makes what I think are good arguments that addiction is not a simple thing we can fix only by fixing the enviroment even though it is part of it. OP was asking for evidence so I thought I’d chip in with a modern source. There are no socities that have solved addiction. Obviously it is a gnarly problem.

The endless counter examples.

It’s a nuanced issue not a simple issue. Mental health is often involved but I guess your simple cure works for mental health too?

People read some articles about a few studies and not only form but propagate reductive takes with absolute certainty… It’s baffling to see people operate this way.

It actually is, but creating these kinds of environments and promoting healthy social lives is extremely not profitable. We'd have to dramatically lower the cost of living for everyone and make huge investments in infrastructure and subsidize the creation of third places.

Ok I guess we’re hallucinating all the addicts who have/had those things. Mental health is never part of the problem either.

Claiming the problem of addiction has zero nuance is one of the silliest takes I’ve ever read on here.

Idk what part of "make society affordable for everyone and ensure that everyone has access to adequate care and social support" sounds like an easy or reductive fix.

Maybe my use of the world "simple" is causing some hangups. This is obviously a prerequisite for curing addiction worldwide. Lacking support, care, and social ties is a strong indicator that an addict will relapse in any case. You can't even start treating the really pathological cases without a comprehensive healthy environment for everyone.

The summation of the problem is reductive and your fix won’t fix it, although there’s no doubt it would help. No one is claiming your solution is bad, on the contrary it’s the best solution, but to claim it would completely eliminate addiction is preposterous.

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