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I don't think any other competitor makes hardware of a similar class in terms of quality.

Framework is great, but it doesn't even come close in terms of quality. Specs are one thing, how the product looks, feels, attention to detail, and most importantly: long term viability! even if you take away everything else, macbooks are though. I've used a couple for over a decade with no hardware repair (except when I broke a screen). Most mac users have similar experiences, so it's not survivor's bias.

If all you care about is specs or open hardware, obviously Apple hardware is not for you.

I don't want framework or system76 to move to ARM, a lot of people like me still _need_ x86 hardware.

That's the thing. Even when you consider the hardware benefits. Let's say they're 10% better (I feel but happy to be corrected, that feels understated).

There isn't a single machine out there that's even moderately close in terms of build quality. Either at the dollar cost for an entry series MacBook Pro or Air with 36GB (38?) memory.

I don't think there's an OEM Linux or Windows laptop with Linux as a first class citizen laptop out there even moderately close for value, performance and build quality.

Shit I'm not sure if there's even one out there if you spent considerably more than on a MacBook. MacBook Pro's are pretty good value now.

From personal experience, laptops that cost $30000+ (yes, USD) still come nowhere close to even a macbook air in terms of build quality. They have much better specs, but if you run Windows on it, the effects are much less pronounced. I have moved from a new Dell to a macbook with half the cpu and ram and for me t least it "feels" like the macbook is twice as fast and as responsive. I don't know if it is just better architecture or fine tuned software, but that's my experience.

Apple used the whole "economy of scale" effect to invest in specialized tooling/machining that would be too costly to recover the ROI for other OEMs. Keep in mind that consumer laptop makers to the most part don't make a profit (or have a low profit margin - last i checked at least) on laptops and printers. No one else has made the economics of using quality material, top of the line design, and specialized machining/tooling work like Apple.

I think for generic OEMs that may hold , however for manufactures like Huawei with their matebookX line the build quality is pretty much on-par while the components and options being offthe shelf standard means it should be easier to upgrade/support and port Linux to than MacBooks.Also the price is pretty much competititve for the kit that one gets. The blocking isseu would be getting one as the whole US attack on the company means their kit is pretty much limited edition within China at the moment currently.Maybe in a year or two they should be available at previous volumes.

I had a Huawei Magicbook for years that finally died last year. It was as close to Apple quality as I'd ever seen in hardware (except for the damn touchpad again - although the Huawei one was head and shoulders above any other non-Apple one).

For hardware quality, Huawei is solidly in second place, with the rest trailing pretty far behind.

My 2000 euro Thinkpad has better specs, I run Windows 11 on it, get to do CUDA and Vulkan natively, and there is DirectX 12 Ultimate as well.

Macs are great as an OS with UNIX infrastructure, aa graphical laptops relevant for workloads besides Photoshop and Sketch, not so much.

And then there’s battery life and sleep drain. Only a handful of competitors come close, and those have caveats like significantly reduced peak performance and the usual papercuts so common in the x86 laptop world.

It’s such a problem that if I were to switch away from Apple, I’d try to find a way to go desktop-exclusive and not use a laptop at all, because everything else on the market is so compromise-ridden as to not be worth the trouble. And I say this as the owner of an X series ThinkPad, which are among the better options in that world.

It’s as if most laptop manufacturers can’t be arsed to take their products seriously. So frustrating.

Thinkpad X1 is very solid and sexy hardware imo, tastes may vary

But my favorite machine of late is a tiny ultra portable with a Ryzen AI 9 chip with 64Gb RAM, it's an x86 that's competitive with the new ARM stuff on power efficiency

I'm curious, which ultraportable is that?

thought you'd never ask :^)

GPD Win Max 2 with the AI 9 HX 370

I’d say newest Surface Laptops are on par.

What does it matter if hardware still works in 10 years if you can't upgrade software anymore, nor can you replace it with something you have control over (like Linux)?

I still have a fully functioning iPhone 4s somewhere. I could still use it as a daily driver hardware-wise, but it is sadly deprecated (32-bit), so - no software support anymore.

I installed Linux Mint on a 2014 macbook pro for my wife and its still going strong.

Yes and the discussion here is about how that's not something that might be possible in the future, based on M1 and M2 support still being partial and M3 really experimental

I can’t believe you’re gaslighting us all by claiming “long term viability” is better on a MacBook, a system with zero user-replaceable components, a glued-in battery, soldered-in memory, etc.

A MacBook loses software updates in 10 years. Sometimes less. You can install what amounts to reverse engineered Linux on one if you lose your macOS updates. You have a choice of basically one viable distro.

And this idea that no other competitor makes hardware in a similar class of quality is extremely outdated. I actually own both a modern MacBook and a Framework. This isn’t some HP shitbook from 2011. It’s all aluminum, like I said the keyboard is literally superior to Mac systems, and are we just going to gloss over 2016-2020 when Apple just shit the bed and made utter garbage? Are we going to gloss over how the current systems have a gigantic notch blocking the menu bar that’s somehow bigger than FaceID but only houses a middling webcam?

You admit you broke a screen on your MacBook. How much did that cost you to repair? How long did you wait without your system to repair it? Or did you just go off and buy a new one?

The screen repair was like $150. I've had framebooks and they broke within 3 years from hardware failures. macbooks going strong a decade+. You can repair framework, you usually don't have to with a mac. Plus, for people who can't repair their own pc, apple's support is better than framework,dell,etc.

and please ffs, stop misusing the term "gaslight". someone having a different opinion and experience than you is not the same gaslighting you. gaslighting is when someone blames you for a harm they themselves caused. it isn't even possible for me to gaslight you in this context since the harm caused can only come from apple or someone making you use apple products.

> And this idea that no other competitor makes hardware in a similar class of quality is extremely outdated.

You might be right, but framework isn't it. We're having this discussion to better inform each other, so what laptop do you recommend that has a similar build quality as an MBP?

You had a framework that broke in 3 years. I had a MacBook Pro 15” 2016 with a defective keyboard design that had repeating keystrokes within a year, which wasn’t corrected on the design of the machines until 4 years later.

It’s gaslighting because you’re trying to convince us of a different alternate reality than the observed truthful reality, not just a different opinion. You’re trying to tell us that factually non-user-repairable MacBooks with a manufacturer that refuses to sell spare parts with a major hardware reliability scandal under its belt less than 10 years ago will stand the test of time.

I never claimed that you can find hardware that is 100% as good as MacBooks, I’m only claiming that the extra XX% better hardware polish/quality/battery life you get with a Mac is not really worth giving up expandable storage and easy Linux compatibility in the context of someone who was going to install Asahi Linux instead of macOS. And there are PC systems that get closer than ever to MacBook quality. ThinkPad X1 Carbon, some higher end ASUS Zenbook systems I’ve played with, even some of the thin and light gaming-oriented systems out there are really nice quality as the space is very competitive.

If the only major compromises are battery life (solved by a $50 spare battery or a wall outlet at the coffee shop) or how much my laptop feels like a luxury indulgence like a fashionable handbag, I’m personally fine with that.

I won't address anything else you've said because you keep abusing "gaslighting". I had a different experience and spoke about, others on the thread echoed my experience. Every mac user i've met so far has had similar experiences. I didn't tell you that your experience is wrong or invalid, i simply stated mine. You're abusing this trendy term as a cheat-code to avoid having to make reasonable arguments.

> owning/carrying around a $50 portable battery isn’t such a bad thing

Carrying an extra powerbank that has to be charged daily (assuming you'll use your computer full day) is not something I'd just handwave like that.

For some types of work, I carry around 3 power banks if I'm to do a full days work away from power. Max screen brightness + high CPU use of long compiles means I'm averaging 40 watts

Add on a starlink and you need a trolley to carry the weight of the power packs needed.

Sure. For your type of work, that's the only solution.

To clarify, I'm totally fine with powerbanks, especially that these days even the cheapo ones support a subset of PD to charge a laptop (sometimes even 12V is enough, my Thinkpad allows that, I've read somewhere that Framework can charge from even 5V). I'm just not fine with solving an objectively poorer battery management (compared to Macs) by just buying external battery and calling it a solution. It's a workaround at best.

Why not? My framework weighs 1 pound less than my MacBook Pro did and the spare battery weighs about one pound itself. Net backpack weight is the same.

If I am guilty of hand waving a spare battery aren’t MacBook die-hard guilty of handwaving away major downsides to the device like soldered-in storage? I saved something like $500 compared to Apple by buying my own 2TB of storage.

And let’s be honest, it’s rare to actually need MacBook Air levels of “sitting away from a power outlet” battery life. It’s definitely nice to have and I definitely wish my framework had that level of battery life but it’s a want not a need, and it’s not as important to me as having a system I can repair myself, having a system that runs Linux with first-class support, plays PC games easily, etc.

I will also say that the spare battery being in my backpack now has coincidentally come in handy countless times outside of the laptop.

And if you want better battery life than that there are other choices like Lenovo, you don’t even have to use a Framework to get a great Linux laptop.

I have a Framework 13 that I use as my personal laptop and a work-issued M3 MacBook Pro.

I love my Framework 13. I'm a long-time Mac user, but I increasingly found myself alienated by locked-down hardware and increasingly locked-down software, and so I ended up switching back to PCs. I greatly appreciate my Framework 13's user-serviceability. While I use Windows 11 + WSL (Microsoft Office is the main thing holding me back from using Linux exclusively, and yes, I was a regular LibreOffice user back in my student days when I couldn't afford a Microsoft Office license), it's great to have the option to go to Linux full-time on well-supported hardware.

With that said, my M3 MacBook Pro has absolutely amazing battery life. By comparison, my Framework 13 has rather abysmal battery life by 2025 standards. In fact, it feels reminiscent of my very first Apple laptop: a 2006 Core Duo MacBook, which got roughly five hours when brand new. Even putting my Framework 13 to sleep drains the battery after a few hours, while on my MacBook Pro, it barely sips from the battery.

I hope future releases of Framework laptops have better battery life; it makes a difference.

My beef with the Framework laptops is that their memory bandwidth is 5 to 8 times slower (depending on the generation, CPU, and RAM) than that of a $1,500 refurbished MacBook Pro M1 Max 64GB.

But then you have a 5 year old laptop that’s going to lose official Apple software support in 5 years and become a paperweight unless you install your choice of ONE Linux distro.

If you don’t specifically have a memory bandwidth-constrained workflow this doesn’t matter at all and having upgradable memory is still better for most people.

If Framework starts using CAMM modules or releases a Ryzen AI board with soldered RAM this difference is lessened/disappears.

> choice of ONE Linux distro

fwiw the asahi kernel and patches are usable from other distros just fine; i've done it on nixos in the past and the linked blog post shows some stuff running on gentoo

Sounds like a bunch of extra work and potential bugs/issues compared to “download iso, install iso”

But it's so slow. Why not just buy a new MacBook Pro every 2 years with more RAM and a faster CPU? The machine makes us money. I mean, I don't know what you guys are doing.

A M1 Max has 400GB/s of memory bandwidth but the CPU is only capable of using half of that (see https://tlkh.hashnode.dev/benchmarking-the-apple-m1-max#memo...). So a framework 13 with ddr 5 5600 with 86GB/s of memory bandwidth has a bit less than half, nowhere near ⅕th.

If we compare like-to-like the rtx 5070 in a framework 16 has 384GB/s on its own, add the 86 and the combined memory bandwidth is higher than a M1 Max.

I was being generous. These are just the pure bandwidth speeds. For my workflow when the CPU has to go back and forth with the RAM hudreds of times with unique queries, SoCs are hundreds times faster not 5 times.

if only it were 10%

even the things you mention in your post paint a picture of a difference that for a lot of usage patterns is much more significant than just the last 10%

> A new battery is DIY, $60, not $250 with a wait for service. Replacing a broken screen is DIY $200, not $700 and a visit to the Apple service depot.

This is a weird assertion to make, if you don't have the parts on hand and can't walk into a store to buy them same-day. A big part of the reason I _do_ buy Apple laptops (besides the fact I do like the OS, battery life and hardware) is that I can walk into an Apple Store in any major city I'm likely to be in and purchase a replacement immediately should disaster strike while I'm traveling.

But now you’re comparing buying a whole new computer to repairing one. It’s not like it’s hard to buy an x86 laptop at a Best Buy.

The fact of the matter is that sending a MacBook to depot and fixing it takes around a week including transit times to and from. Apple no longer does any computer repairs in store.

At $60 for a battery or $200 for a screen those parts are so cheap that I could just buy them to keep on hand and they’d still cost less than AppleCare.

Many parts like storage and RAM are standard where, yes, I can walk into a store and buy them and install them same day.

It is in fact very difficult to buy a professional grade computer of any kind from Best Buy, let alone something like a Thinkpad with reasonable specs. You might luck out and be in a city with a micro center, but you probably won’t.

If I’m on the road and my laptop breaks, I’m buying a new one post haste, and resolving the problem when I get home. It’s like 2-3 hours worth of billing time to do so vs screwing about trying to repair. Simply not worth the time.

I don’t believe you. My local Best Buy has 134 different laptop models in stock in the store.

Have you ever heard of Amazon prime? You really think they don’t have a suitable laptop they can deliver to you overnight or maybe even the same day?

And anyway, this is really only an argument for “whatever is most popular,” not “what is the best machine.” If some other brand besides Apple was the most popular laptop in the world that other brand would get this same treatment by you even if the computer sucked (which MacBook Pro did between 2016 and 2020)

Essentially you’re saying that Budweiser is the best beer because it’s the most available. If I run out of beer I can get it anywhere.

I do indeed think that there is unlikely to be a single professional model in a Best Buy - a Thinkpad, a professional-grade Dell without crapware preinstalled, a System76 or a Framework. The exception of course is actually a Mac, which you can buy there.

Amazon prime might get one to you next day, late in the day. That is wildly insufficient for a business trip. If you’re in a city where they will deliver same-day, you can probably also go to a Microcenter and get a low-spec Thinkpad off-the-shelf.

Beer is not a necessity when traveling for business (though I actually happen to be perfectly happy to drink Bud Light, Coors Banquet, or PBR just as readily as a Grisette, since I’m not a snob), but a functioning laptop is.

As for popularity - sure - making a good product makes it popular. I was in fact so happy with the Mac between 2016-18 that I bought a second so I would have the nice low travel keyboard and Touch Bar available indefinitely.

Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant, frankly.

My only issue with Intel at this point is Lunar Lake only supports 32GB of RAM max. If it supported 64GB, I'd buy it today.

I believe that Arrow Lake supports 64gb. I'm waiting on availability before I replace my aging (9yo) Lenovo X1 Yoga.