Hacker News Reader

Comment by SomeUserName432 | Hacker News Reader

I've been on a mac for ~4 years now.

It was a bit of a struggle to get used to it, coming from windows.

The only thing I really miss now is alt-tab working as expected. (It's a massive pain to move between two windows of the same program)

View on HN

You know you can use CMD+backtick (CMD+`) to cycle between windows of the same app? Add shift to go in reverse.

Or otherwise you can enable the app exposé feature to swipe down with three fingers and it will show you only windows of the same app.

I’m a lifelong Mac user and didn’t know this.

Shame on me.

Apple really doesn't tell power-users about a lot of these features. You can really gain a lot by searching for Mac shortcuts and tricks. I still learn new things that have been around for over a decade.

I'd argue if you need to be told about keyboard shortcuts, then you're not a power user. (I.e., knowing how to find keyboard shortcuts I'd consider a core trait of power users).

Keyboard shortcuts should be exposed in some fashion. IMO, Microsoft is typically better at this.

What specifically does Microsoft do that Apple should do?

My perception is that on Windows it is standard to display keyboard shortcuts next to application menu items, whereas on the Mac, that doesn’t seem to be the case. Perhaps that’s just a culture thing. It’s expected on Windows, and not as expected on Mac.

macOS does this too (if I'm following correctly), you can see it in the "The Apple Menu in macOS Ventura" screenshot on this Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_menu#/media/File:Apple_m... it's done for both application keyboard shortcuts, as well as system shortcuts (as in this example).

For completion, system shortcuts are also available in `System Settings > Keyboard > Keyboard Shortcuts...` (where they can also be changed). (Although I don't think that's 100% comprehensive, e.g., I don't think `⌘⇥` for the application switcher is listed there.)

Another tip: lots of useful characters are only an option press away. You can find them by viewing your keyboard [1], which is easy if you have you input source on your dock. Some of my favorites:

     ⌥k = ˚ (degree)         ⌥e a = á
     ⌥p = π (pi)             ⌥e e = é
     ⌥5 = ∞ (infinity)       ⌥e i = í
     ⌥d = ∂ (delta)          ⌥e o = ó
     ⌥8 = • (bullet)         ⌥e u = ú
    ⇧⌥9 = · (middot)         ⌥n n = ñ

⇧ = shift; ⌥ = option

[1]: https://support.apple.com/guide/mac-help/use-the-keyboard-vi...

> which is easy if you have you input source on your dock.

correction: on your macOS menu bar (at the top-right of the screen along with WiFi, time/date, etc)

This is one of my favorite features of macs and it astounds me there's nothing close in equivalence for the other platforms. The recommendations are always 'Install a keybinding app and add all of them as key bindings', as if that wouldn't take hours of tedious labor to do.

And there's more from where that came from: https://support.apple.com/en-us/102650

> Or otherwise you can enable the app exposé feature to swipe down with three fingers and it will show you only windows of the same app.

If you have an Apple keyboard, CTRL-F3 (without the Fn modifier) will do the same. Not sure if there are third-party keyboards that support Mac media keys, but I'm guessing there are some at least...

That has terrible ergonomics for anyone using a non-US keyboard, though - the backtick is immediately above the option key so to hit together with CMD requires clawing together your thumb and little finger.

GNOME does this much better, as it instead uses Super+<whatever the key above Tab is>. In the US, that remains ` but elsewhere it's so much better than on MacOS.

> That has terrible ergonomics for anyone using a non-US keyboard, though - the backtick is immediately above the option key so to hit together with CMD requires clawing together your thumb and little finger.

That's true, hence why I remap it to a "proper" key, above Tab with:

  $ cat ~/Scripts/keyboard_remapping.sh
  #!/bin/bash
  
  hidutil property --set '{"UserKeyMapping":
      [{"HIDKeyboardModifierMappingSrc":0x700000064,
        "HIDKeyboardModifierMappingDst":0x700000035},
       {"HIDKeyboardModifierMappingSrc":0x700000035,
        "HIDKeyboardModifierMappingDst":0x7000000E1}]
  }'

Hey guys, Linux is rubbish because you have to default to the command line just to get it to work properly...

Firstly, I have not complained about Linux, did I? Even more, I'm about to switch to Linux on my desktop, thanks to Microsoft and their EOS for "the last Windows version ever". Secondly, I suspect power users hardly ever find any OS perfect for their needs, there are always some customizations.

Ah sorry, knee jerk response.

So many comments about how Linux isn't ready because of some admin task requiring to run a CLI command.

Then Windows apologists tell you that actually all your problems are because you didn't edit your install ISO or pirate a IOT enterprise edition. Because that's normal behaviour.

And it's becoming more common with Macs. I remember Snow Leopard was genuinely amazing, and a massive improvement over everything else. I had high hopes after Mountain Lion that we would get a feature release and then a performance release, because the performance releases just made everything so much better. Alas I just seem to get more whitespace.

Only sometimes it doesn't work. (For me on a Norwegian keyboard it is CMD+<)

Specifically, sometimes it works with my Safari windows ans sometimes it doesn't.

And sometimes when it doesn't work, Option+< will work for some reason.

But sometimes that doesn't work either and then I just have to swipe and slide or use alt-tab (yes, you can now install a program that gives you proper alt-tab, so I do not have to deal with this IMO nonsense, it just feels like the right thing to do when I know I'm just looking for the other Safari window.)

I'm not complaining, I knew what I went to when I asked $WORK for a Mac, I have had one before and for me the tradeoff of having a laptop supported by IT and with good battery time is worth it even if the UX is (again IMO) somewhat crazy for a guy who comes from a C64->Win 3.1->Windows 95/98->Linux (all of them and a number of weird desktops) background.

> yes, you can now install a program that gives you proper alt-tab

Have you tried any that actually delivered on what was promised?

And actually replacing the alt-tab, not just adding yet-another-key-combination to use?

> Have you tried any that actually delivered on what was promised?

It absolutely does.

Maybe I should just switch to using it 100% of the time like on Windows. (I was trying to have it the KDE way: Yes, window based switching instead of App based, also an option to switch between windows from the same application.)

I install Karabiner [0] first thing on a new macOS.

It lets you map this key to fix this issue and allows many more mappings.

[0] https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/

This usually doesn't work for me.

For example, if I open a new Firefox window, the Mac seems to force the two Firefox windows onto different desktops. This already is a struggle, because sometimes I don't want the windows to be on two desktops. I find that if I try to move one window to the same desktop as the other, then Mac will move the other desktop to the original desktop so they are both still on different desktops.

OK, got sidetracked there on a different annoyance, but on top of the above, CMD-backtick doesn't usually work for me, and I attribute it to the windows typically being forced onto different desktops. Some of the constraints for using a Mac are truly a mystery to me, although I'm determined to master it eventually. It shouldn't be this difficult though. For sure, Mac is nowhere near as intuitive as it's made out to be.

Full-screen windows (little green button at the top) seem to get "their own desktop". Has tripped me up a few times.

Or just put a program onto a second monitor then open a second window for that program. Usually it will not open in the same monitor. This is especially fun when you get pop-ups in browsers...

  > two Firefox windows onto different desktops

My favorite is how it'll force move your workspace if you get a popup.

To reproduce, get a second monitor, throw your web browser onto that second monitor (not in full screen), and then open a application into full screen on your laptop's screen (I frequently have a terminal there). Then go to a site that gives you a popup for OAuth or a Security Key (e.g. GitHub, Amazon, Claude, you got a million options here). Watch as you get a jarring motion on the screen you aren't looking at, have to finish your login, and then move back to where you were.

  > Mac are truly a mystery to me

Everyone tells me how pretty and intuitive they are yet despite being on one for years I have not become used to them. It is amazing how many dumb and simple little problems there are that arise out of normal behavior like connecting a monitor. Like what brilliant engineer decided that it was a good idea to not allow certain resolutions despite the monitor... being that resolution? Or all the flipping back and forth. It's like they looked at the KDE workspaces and were like "Let's do that, but make it jarring and not actually have programs stay in their windows". I thought Apple cared about design and aesthetics but even as a Linux user I find these quite ugly and unintuitive.

I'm truly annoyed at it reordering the desktops even when i have just a single screen (the built in one). I expect my programs to be in certain order, so switching between them is predictable.

Or sometimes it just decided to open a link in a new chrome window instead of just opening a tab.... and not even consistently.

That gets extra weird with a second monitor. I really cannot predict where a workspace on that monitor will land when disconnecting. It could be prepending or appending. I think it orders based on last active but my lack of confidence should even say something. I mean just because you interact with a program doesn't mean that was the last active program... crazy that I can scroll or type into a window and it not be considered the active window

Even worse is the lag in switching windows. If you use keyboard shortcuts to switch, your screen will have switched over but focus is still on the previous window so anything you type goes there. I have to pause for a second to wait for it to catch up.

and disabling animations doesn't help, it's still slow.

It still surprises me how slow so much of Windows and OSX are. It is absolutely bonkers how slow so many things are[0]. Even more given how many people don't realize how fast everything can or should be. People will fight hard to justify why they don't have basic optimizations. Much harder than it would be to actually implement them...

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44944352

Stop using multiple desktops. Use a single extended desktop. Move the apps where you want them and snap them to one side or the other to any given screen. Done.

Stop using "full screen mode", with recent macOS you can just drag the window to the top of the screen and let it "snap" to fit the entire screen. This is different from "full screen mode" which is largely useless. What you want is that the app window fills the screen space, not that it takes over the entire screen

"Don't do as you want, do as I say. BTW you are holdi^W doing it wrong anyway"

Typical Mac user.

As a hybrid macOS / Windows user (with 20+ years of Windows keyboard muscle memory), I found Karabiner Elements a godsend. You can import complex key modifications from community built scripts which will automatically remap things like Cmd+Tab to switch windows, as well as a number of other Windows hotkeys to MacOS equivalents (link below):

https://karabiner-elements.pqrs.org/

https://ke-complex-modifications.pqrs.org/?q=windows#windows...

https://alt-tab-macos.netlify.app/

I don't think I could survive on MacOS without AltTab.

It has some weird behavior when it comes to reverse order, when you cmd+tab+shift then the shift key is suddenly the deciding button, not tab.

End up with the focus just speeding off to the left without really intending to, since it ignores tab and now focuses on shift.

Play with your keyboard, alt, ctrl, cmd + tab or ~ or combos of those will do wild things for ya

I’ve not used windows since XP, but the one thing I missed was the keyboard menu navigation with alt and the underlined single letters. Still in my muscle memory, and I always felt like it was at least as good as keyboard shortcuts.

Well I have some good news, look up the AltTab MacOS tool. It does exactly what you're after and it has been a life saver for me.

Apparently i'm the only one who didn't know about cmd+`

Poking around System Settings > Keyboard > Keyboard Shortcuts… > Keyboard is a pretty good place to browse if you haven't. There are default keybindings that can changed and switched on/off. For macOS Sequoia 15.6:

    [ ]  Change the way Tab moves focus            ⌃F7
    [ ]  Turn keyboard access on or off            ⌃F1
    [ ]  Move focus on the menu bar                ⌃F2
    [ ]  Move focus on the Dock                    ⌃F3
    [ ]  Move focus to the active or next window   ⌃F4
    [ ]  Move focus to the window toolbar          ⌃F5
    [ ]  Move focus to the floating window         ⌃F6
    [*]  Move focus to next window                  ⌘`
    [ ]  Move focus to status menus                ⌃F8
    [ ]  Show contextual menu                      ⌃↩

I only have one checked currently; I'm not feeling adventurous.

You know about Cmd+Backtick, do you?

CMD + ~.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com