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Yeah but if you are in that state, you probably don’t give a shit and everybody else seems to be the problem. So how do you solve this? When dementia isn’t too far progressed, your life seems to be still worthwhile to live and once the dementia gets worse, it’s too late to realize this.

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I read that in some societies, if you ended up not being able to feed yourself, they would bring you to your favorite tree and leave you there.

If you ended back in camp you’d be welcomed. If you didn’t, that was your end. I found that remarkably comforting and peaceful.

Death from hunger (esp. when you're frightened and don't understand what's happening) is neither comfortable nor comforting

Fascinating that you think someone with dementia would be suffering more from hunger then from their condition sapping away at them.

If I was starving to death, the acute sensation of hunger would override everything else in my mind.

You ever hung out with someone in deep dementia ?

Unfortunately someone with advanced dementia does not know if she has eaten or not. Most of the time there will be no eating, unless someone else puts food in your mouth.

That wasn't the case with my father, who had a pretty good appetite up until his last few weeks.

That’s literally what it says in the story though. That it would only happen if the person won’t eat by themselves.

I'm sorry for your first-hand experience, but I also need to remind you that 1 first-hand experience does not translate well to the overall population of people experiencing dementia.

Why would they need to know whether they have eaten, or even what eating is? They would feel the sensation of gnawing hunger in their stomach, the same way a baby or animal does.

But seriously, how do you know that?

Neither you nor I know what the person with dementia is suffering from.

What you call "comforting" is leaving a helpless prison in the wilderness to succumb to thirst, hunger or predators

Thirst and hunger. They’re meant to die a peaceful death so pretty sure no predators involved.

Go to a dementia facility and hang out with your those people. You will see suffering.

My grandmother died of dementia.

If you think that "cannot feed themselves" is when a person is already completely gone and it's okay to "leave them under a tree to die of hunger and thirst", I've got news for you.

My mother has dementia, so maybe dementia just has different expressions and you shouldn’t generalise ?

I have this childhood memory of my neighbour's dog, that grew old and one day decided to go out in the woods and die peacefully. They found it a few days later.

I wish to remain so lucid when the time comes, that I can go sit under a tree and let myself go like that old dog. Perhaps I should leave a note.

I always think of that scene from Donnie Darko - where he says when his dog got sick, she went to hide under the porch. “To die?” His therapist prompts him. “To be alone” he corrects her pointedly. [0]

That’s kind of what I want when I die too - I don’t think I want to be around other people when it happens. I want to have my final moments to face death on my own, without feeling like I have to perform for other people.

… that said, give me another 60 years to chew on it and maybe I’ll feel different.

[0] https://youtu.be/8j1IMBM-QyE?si=jfCe9YUvKW_t5m5e

Wow I’m the total opposite. I’m very annoyed to be around others most of the time, but upon dying I can’t imagine doing it alone or without the help of loved ones.

A lot of motivation to be risk averse with my physical body in this life comes from a desire to make it to old age. Furthermore, I instantly understood why having children was good when I realized that they are your insurance that you’ll (usually) have someone to help comfort you on your deathbed who is themselves still lucid.

Honestly that strikes me as a pretty fucked up and self-serving reason to have children.

You should have kids because you want to create new life, and support them as they become the best humans that they can be - not because you’re scared of dying alone.

Your worldview is even worse. At least I'm honest in my egoism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Never_to_Have_Been

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benatar%27s_asymmetry_argument

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voluntary_Human_Extinction_Mov...

> antinatalism, the philosophical position that coming into existence is always a harm

> a decrease in the human population would prevent a significant amount of human-caused suffering

Ridiculous. Without coming into existence there is nothing anyway - by that logic, coming into existence is always a pleasure too, it’s always a joy, it’s always a triumph and a fulfillment. Existence is always existence, nothing is always nothing. It’s a useless tautology.

If you’d rather be nothing then give up on living. I’m perfectly happy existing.

> I’m very annoyed to be around others most of the time, but upon dying I can’t imagine doing it alone or without the help of loved ones.

I'm the same but I'm trying to accept that while we are born among family, dying is a solitary journey.

(There is a saying along these lines, but search engines are utterly useless at surfacing it)

Or they'll treat you with a daily oil bath and feed you tender coconut water ... until few days later your kidney's blow out.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalaikoothal

I think people tend to underestimate the risks in allowing suicide —- here’s a blurb from the linked article:

However, social acceptance may lead to more egregious abuses: the issue gained a higher profile in early 2010, when an 80-year-old man escaped after discovering his intended fate and heard his family members discussing how they were going to "share" his lands, and took refuge in a relative's home.

Using exceptions to make rules is dumb.

Isn't it only exceptional because assisted suicide is relatively rare worldwide?

What has been described above is not suicide.

People also underestimate the risks in allowing sexual intercourse, driving a car, playing football and doing ice baths ...

That’s not suicide. That’s a conspiracy to commit murder.

Yes, and that is one of the reasons our culture has made practices like these taboo- it can give the veneer of respectability to despicable acts

And why there should be more nuance to the issue: legalizing suicide is not the same as legalizing assisted suicide.

I want to be free to die on my own terms. Conversely, I do not want the healthcare system to be allowed to even suggest it.

suicide already is legal -> if you succeed there's no one to prosecute so the question is just absurd. One can only discuss legality of attempted suicide.

You're assuming someone in shape to do it correctly. Someone who is choosing it for medical reasons might not have the strength and motor control, especially if they don't have access to suitable tools.

True, but the methods are quite gruesome.

The state tends to suppress methods which would be peaceful and effective, Such as Nembutal

The healthcare system should not be allowed to suggest it. And it should require an independent review if you request it. That doesn't mean the system shouldn't be allowed to provide it.

The healthcare system is financially incentivized to encourage you to do it. It must absolutely remain taboo for medical professionals to even think about the option.

> people tend to underestimate the risks in allowing suicide

People obsess over this risk. It—and religious opposition—are the reason it’s only an option for those who can travel to and hospice in Switzerland.

> social acceptance may lead to more egregious abuses

Do we have any evidence societies that have tolerated suicide had higher rates of murder? Switzerland doesn’t strike me as a hotbed of senior murder, for example.

If you don’t make it back you would die of starvation and lack of water. These are some of the worst ways of dying. What do you find comforting and peaceful about it? The person has been abandoned by their community and could suffer terribly for days.

The idea is the tree is not too far from camp. It should hours not days to return. And I suspect they would check on them.

You could express your wishes about how you would like to be treated in advance, while you are still clear in the head. That’s already possible for other situations, like when you are braindead and entirely dependent on machines to keep you alive, with no chance of recovery.

Having a living will is a great idea in general. My dad got a brain tumor and had no documentation on what he wanted do with his estate, in the event he became vegetative, etc. By the time he realized he needed one, it was too late for "sound mind judgement" and my mom had to go through this ridiculous legal process to ensure she held on to his assets and whatnot while she was directly caring for a dying man.

Save your loved ones some grief, create a living will with a trusted lawyer, update it about once a year. It's worth it. There are so many insane snafus one can get into with estranged family members, the state/gov't, medical institutions, etc that make the situation even more difficult and stressful to deal with. Don't expect anyone coming out of the woodwork to act according to honor. They are vultures and know no such kindness.

You can create one with LegalZoom for very little money.

It includes a one hour zoom session with an actual attorney to explain things.

They make it so easy.

Unfortunately some people refuse to prepare because they don't want to think about death.

Even if you express this in a wish, but you probably don’t remember it when you are deep into this, how does it get executed? I’m curious about this, so does the court overrule the current you with the previous you?

I get it’s easy with other diseases such as cancer, though.

You express it in writing in an advance medical directive.

Same as with other similar agreements. A doctor needs to declare your mental fitness. When in doubt, a court gets involved. As a rule of thumb, if you are able to understand enough to getter law involved you’re likely still mentally fit.

Being braindead is pretty different from having Alzheimers. How do we account for people who change their minds? Do we just forcibly murder them anyway?

> You could express your wishes about how you would like to be treated in advance, while you are still clear in the head.

You can't express in advance that you want to have assisted suicide.

Your former self might express wishes, but what if your later self doesn't feel like this anymore? In a way, we can all get the same feeling when doing another round of "lose weight this year" new year's resolutions just to realize a couple weeks later that the former self wasn't that trustworthy to begin with (or was it the other way around, the future self can't be trusted?)

Point is: you can wish for whatever you want, but dementia is probably a tough case and it shifts your priorities, making everything before obsolete and I'm not sure that people beginning to suffer from dementia ever find the right point in time to end life early.

Uh, new years resolutions are not exactly what I would call the ideal metaphor for assisted suicide.

Plenty of people here who reacted negatively to OP's suggestion seem to not have had to deal with a loved one who dealt with Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia. It's not hard like taking care of a toddler is hard. It's hard like, "this is not the same person I know for my whole life, they don't recognize me, they say and do mean things to me and their grand-kids and neighbors all the time, and require 24x7 supervision to not hurt themselves or break everything in the room."

Oh, and remember that in the US, all nursing homes for this kind of thing are for-profit companies backed by venture capital, meaning they are expensive as hell. Take your current middle-class apartment, shrink the size to just a bedroom (that you now have to share with someone else), and then quadruple the rent. Just a few years of that can decimate the life savings of the average retiree and/or their children's.

I speak with some authority here because all of this happened to my father. He was "alive" in the last few years of his life, but not what anyone would call "living." I absolutely do not want that to happen to me. If it were legal in the US, I would absolutely opt for an assisted suicide plan for myself.

There are ways to handle it that avoid all the "whatabouts" that you and others have already brought up. One rough draft of an example: 1) Have a lawyer write up a kind of will expressing my wishes. 2) Get three unbiased negative diagnoses to show I am of sound mind prior to signing the will. 3) Go in for regular testing (every year, maybe two). After each negative diagnosis, add another (witnessed and/or notarized) signature to the will. The will is not valid if testing or a signature is missed. 3) If there is ever a positive diagnosis, it must be confirmed by two other clinics. 4) If three years pass with doctors and clinical tests confirming increasing dementia symptoms along the way, the assisted suicide clause is invoked and I get to pass peacefully surrounded by loved ones instead of being a stressful burden on them for years or decades to come.

Yes, there are details and unintended consequences that neither me nor anyone else can see ahead of time. Like everything else, they are dealt with as they come up. No, you won't convince me that your favorite corner case means the entire idea is invalid.

> Plenty of people here who reacted negatively to OP's suggestion seem to not have had to deal with a loved one who dealt with Alzheimer's or other forms of dementia. It's not hard like taking care of a toddler is hard. It's hard like, "this is not the same person I know for my whole life, they don't recognize me, they say and do mean things to me and their grand-kids and neighbors all the time, and require 24x7 supervision to not hurt themselves or break everything in the room."

This is exactly it. It's like dealing with a curmudgeonly toddler with extreme agency and no self-awareness. The rest of your comment is so spot on or at least matches my experience. I'm sorry you had to go through it but you genuinely seem to have become stronger from it and I'm grateful you could share your experience with us.

The same argument would apply to any other kind of will or testament. You need to update it frequently. It’s not uncommon for people to change their mind quite late, and (at least in Germany) that’s perfectly possible even until late. If people dispute this later change of mind a judge needs to get involved, and being married to one I can tell you that they treat each case differently and with the appropriate care.

Arguably the best qualified person to decide what to do with Future You is Present You.

> how do you solve this?

You don’t. You try to take care of yourself before you’re gone. If you miss that opportunity, you and your loved ones suffer. Same as it is for everyone now.

Give me a timer. Like the previous discussion of a red button it verifies identity. I can set the timer for whatever I want, if it reaches zero it peacefully kills me. Dementia, set the timer for say 1 month. If my mind is too far gone to reset it it will run down.

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