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Comment by eisen_matrix | Hacker News Reader

This is based on Nova definition probably.

- Unprocessed or minimally processed foods (fresh or frozen products, yoghurts, etc)

- Processed culinary ingredients (oil, vinegar)

- Processed foods (foods created from combining elements of the first 2 groups using typical cooking processes, like bread, pasta, some meats, canned vegetables)

- Ultra-processed foods (foods requiring industrial processing).

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I imagine it’s got more to do with ingredients than processing. Local restaurants might make fresh bread with a bleached flour product that has various dough conditioning agents added to it, while puffed rice absolutely requires an industrial process to create and has one ingredient.

> puffed rice absolutely requires an industrial process

“Traditional methods to puff or pop rice include frying in oil or salt. Commercial puffed rice is usually made by heating rice kernels under high pressure in the presence of steam, though the method of manufacture varies widely” [1].

If I had to guess, the commercial stuff is more thoroughly and homogeneously gelatinized. That, in turn, probably raises its glycemic index.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puffed_rice

The texture is completely different. The industrial method involves heating it under very high pressure with steam and releasing the pressure extremely quickly. The closest non-industrial analog is a Chinese popcorn cannon… but it’s much more controlled. It incorporates much more air into the final product without imparting any flavor from the heat source.

So processedness is a proxy for healthiness. But raw sugar and guacamole would both count as processed.

> raw sugar and guacamole would both count as processed

No. Processed culinary ingredient (Group 2) and minimally processed (Group 1). (Obviously, both can be turned into a UPF through fuckery.)

Guacamole would count as Group 3 I believe. You use Group 1 and Group 2 ingredients to create it unless you're just grinding up avocados, in which case that's not a guacamole. If you really want to get interesting, you could even say homemade guacamole uses citric acid (from limes) to extend shelf life and enhance the flavor, which is on top of the sodium chloride (salt) that you use to do the same.

TIL the No True Scotsman fallacy can be used by guac snobs! :)

I mean... different dishes have different names. Mashed avocados would probably just be called mashed avocados. Guacamole has many many regional versions, but I do think salt would be considered an essential ingredient in most of them. Salt would be a Group 2 ingredient. Nova calls out adding salt or sugar to Group 1 makes it Group 3, and specifically calls out Group 1 does not contain added salt.

"Minimally processed foods, that together with unprocessed foods make up NOVA group 1, are unprocessed foods altered by industrial processes such as removal of inedible or unwanted parts, drying, crushing, grinding, fractioning, roasting, boiling, pasteurization, refrigeration, freezing, placing in containers, vacuum packaging or non-alcoholic fermentation. None of these processes add salt, sugar, oils or fats, or other food substances to the original food." https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10260459/

> Guacamole would count as Group 3 I believe

Too minimally processed-I’d say it’s Group 1. You’re taking Group 1 ingredients (avocado, jalapeño, lime, onion, maybe tomato and cilantro) and chopping, squeezing and pounding them. It can entirely be done with stone tools.

Can be done with just your hand.

Salt is Group 2, isn't it? (Salt is present unless you make a low sodium guacamole or it's a recipe I've never seen)

Salt is the Group 2 ingredient that I was mentioning. Nova calls out adding salt or sugar to Group 1 makes it Group 3, and specifically calls out Group 1 does not contain added salt.

What's the minimally processed food that bread is made of?

Flour is processed from grains

> What's the minimally processed food that bread is made of?

Flour is minimally processed, Nova Group 1, if it’s simply milled and separated. If it’s prepared with industrial solvents, or bleached, it goes straight to Group 4.

Is flour considered food at all? It sounds more like an ingredient than a food.

> sounds more like an ingredient than a food

Nova doesn’t distinguish between ingredients and food [1]. (It needs to be able to do this. UPFs are defined, in part, by almost lacking low-Nova inputs.)

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification

You can eat it and survive.

Cooking it first is a big improvement, but the same is true of carrots, IMO.

AFAIK, whole-wheat flour is considered minimally processed. Of course bread is not equal, so it was more about home-made/sourdough types, not high-processed, shelf-stable ones.

Flour, presumably.

Bread is a bit of an exception here, as it undergoes extensive mechanical (milling), biochemical (fermentation) and thermal (baking) processing. Yet it does not count as ultra-processed.

Bread is made from dough, which is mainly made from flour (the "minimally processed" food), which is made from grains (the unprocessed food)

It definitely stood out as a bit of a confounding example. That combined with the emotive language used in the classification names makes me a bit wary of this way of classifying food.

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