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incomingpain

Consider this scenario.

Your isp emails you that they are terminating your account.

You phone gets disconnected.

You call them and helpdesk doesnt have a clue why.

You try to sign up for new services and they refuse and wont say why.

All because a politician has decided it 'reasonable' to disconnect you from the internet; and he can order complete secrecy and there's no judicial oversight.

Perhaps you showed up at the wrong protest? Note how they seized the bank accounts of protestors and even an entire small bank only a few years ago.

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Let me remind everyone this again. Democracy is not an autocracy with time limits and turns. It's not a system where you elect a few individuals and hand them the power to rule over you for a few years. They are supposed to be your representatives who raise your concerns and protect your interests in a forum that takes decisions that affect all of you. Legislation like these are the small steps that convert the latter into the former. Democracy is fragile. Just electing a candidate periodically is not enough. It depends on the constant effort, vigil and activism from the citizens to safeguard it. It wont survive your apathy. As idealistic as it sounds, this burden is the true cost of living in a democracy. This is a harsh lesson that's recorded in history again and again.

Always take legislation like this seriously and hold your representatives responsible for it. Let them know that their political career in your constituency is finished for good if they support such moves. Let their political party know that they're not winning your constituency again until the damage is reversed. There's no room for subtleties and pleasantries when they're clearly showing you that they don't value your autonomy or the checks and balances on their abuse of power.

That was a bold statement that the children on here will no doubt downvote into oblivion as will mine. I'm tired of having this same argument over and over--just having the ability to vote for draconian shit doesn't mean you get to lord over everyone else! The power mongers in control of most Western governments are insane lunatics who use fear against hapless, low-information fools. They seem hell bent on eliminating every single basic freedom we ever had? Why? I keep hearing "neo-feudalism" but that's just a label, it's not the why. Also, why not just eliminate voting completely? Well, I mean, it's nearly a formality in many places these days already, but they like that little semblance of false legitimacy, I guess.

Democracy is fake; it's the rule of whoever controls the money, influence, media, and pulls the proper manipulation tactics to manipulate the public through fears. It was funny watching the digital ID in the UK, how they were using "porn and kids" for the left-leaning crowds, and "immigrants" for the right-leaning ones, but ultimately the result of both is the same: more control, more surveillance, and decaying freedom.

> Always take legislation like this seriously and hold your representatives responsible for it. Let them know that their political career in your constituency is finished for good if they support such moves

But it isn't. I've gone the route of writing my representatives but when most people support the measures or at least don't oppose them they can easily laugh in your face or outright lie to you, claiming that protests aren't banned when they are (e.g. covid times) and things like that.

Most people here probably called me some government/media pushed negative label just for protesting to uphold freedom/constitutional rights/human rights.

It's not that easy to advocate effectively once you realize gov/media funded propaganda permeates really well.

Sounds about as opaque and infringing on rights as the no-fly list or anything else implemented post 9/11?

[flagged]

> 2022 freedumb convoy

Please avoid snarky tropes like this on HN. We're trying for something different here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

While I agree with most of this and oppose this bill, your last two lines are a mischaracterization. There is judicial oversight, but only after the order is implemented. Second, the bank accounts seized did not belong to protestors, as the leaders of that siege were convicted of mischief, two of which are being sentenced today. In general, protests do not engage in torturing the local populace with 95db of air horn for 16 to 20 hours a day. The account seizure also required emergency powers.

> There is judicial oversight, but only after the order is implemented

In the sense that you can sue to have the order challenged? How's this different than what Trump's doing, where the government does something illegal (or at least legally dubious), and there's "judicial oversight" because aggrieved parties can sue the government?

> Second, the bank accounts seized did not belong to protestors, as the leaders of that siege were convicted of mischief, two of which are being sentenced today.

Were the bank accounts seized before or after the conviction?

> In the sense that you can sue to have the order challenged?

That's a good question. The article doesn't say and I haven't read the bill.

> Were the bank accounts seized before or after the conviction?

Before, of course. That was one of the justifications for invoking the emergency powers, and it wouldn't have been controversial otherwise. This is a digression, though, as there is no mention of any legislative changes to bank account seizures in the article.

>That's a good question. The article doesn't say and I haven't read the bill.

How are your responding to me making affirmative comments that there's judicial oversight if you havent read the bill?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVTgGnNlfe8

It's in the article. I'm happy to read the bill and watch your linked video once my workday is over.

>It's in the article. I'm happy to read the bill and watch your linked video once my workday is over.

You misunderstand. After it's done, only then could you sue and get judicial review. But it's all in secrecy, so you dont know what or who you need to sue. So you cant get judicial review.

Did it say that Telus/Rogers would be forbidden from telling you why they've terminated your account?

> In the sense that you can sue to have the order challenged? How's this different than what Trump's doing, where the government does something illegal (or at least legally dubious), and there's "judicial oversight" because aggrieved parties can sue the government?

Umm,that's how court systems work in general. You sue when someone wrongs you. I'm not sure how else it could possibly work.

> Were the bank accounts seized before or after the conviction?

This is a different topic, but there were 2 different bank account freezes. Some were frozen due to a contempt of court order (this didn't involve the government, a private citizen brought the lawsuit). The more controversial was the emergency powers seizure. Arguably the protestors were engaging in manifestly illegal conduct. Personally i think its akin to how you can arrest someone before conviction, but opinions vary. As far as i know, the bank accounts were only frozen while the protestors were engaging in illegal action and were released once the situation was resolved.

> There is judicial oversight, but only after the order is implemented

How would one find out information about the process, find a lawyer etc. without internet access?

Why is this question somehow a non-sequitor? Many court proceedings are now mandatory zoom meetings. How do you participate in a zoom meeting when the state has barred you. It's a clear catch-22 and the refusal to address it beyond "thats not the intention" is beyond galling.

If I am not mistaken, a court ruled those emergency powers were overreach.

There is not judicial oversight. You never know there was an order.

If you get into that scenario, you suspect the government cut you off, but you go to a lawyer and have literally nothing. The court will not take the case.

>econd, the bank accounts seized did not belong to protestors,

They seized hundreds of accounts; later had the banks terminate the bank accounts.

In fact, not only protestors but people who donated to the protest got their bank accounts seized.

>as the leaders of that siege were convicted of mischief, two of which are being sentenced today.

Protesting the government, in front of parliament is mischief? Political prisoners.

>n general, protests do not engage in torturing the local populace with 95db of air horn for 16 to 20 hours a day. The account seizure also required emergency powers.

Which was found to be unconstitutional.

But Bill C8 wont be abused by this same government? How about abuse in the future by other governments?

> In fact, not only protestors but people who donated to the protest got their bank accounts seized.

As far as I can tell accounts were frozen, not seized. Do you have a reference for donor accounts being seized?

ref: https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/emergency-bank-measures-fin...

>As far as I can tell accounts were frozen, not seized. Do you have a reference for donor accounts being seized?

When it comes to civil rights like Section 8 of the charter. There's no such thing as 'frozen'

They were searched, seized, and later returned.

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/td-bank-freezes-two-a...

You have to go back to figure out how the government knew what bank accounts to seize. They didnt go up to each person and ask to see their debit card. Police dont have a ready list of bank accounts to seize.

The source of the seizures was the gofundme leak by a hacker. Who has since been arrested, convicted, and is in prison for a separate hacking incident. Canada gave him immunity to his crimes during freedom protest. They took the donor list and seized from there.

Thanks for the insight - learned something here. Didn't know about the hacker, that's pretty upsetting.

>The source of the seizures was the gofundme leak by a hacker. Who has since >been arrested, convicted, and is in prison for a separate hacking incident. >Canada gave him immunity to his crimes during freedom protest. They took the >donor list and seized from there.

That's not true, the fundraising platforms raising funds for the convoy had to register with FINTRAC and failing that, the banks can track who is sending money to those platforms for those accounts. It even says so in the article you linked. What's the source that the government used the leak to find the accounts?

>That's not true, the fundraising platforms raising funds for the convoy had to register with FINTRAC and failing that,

A USA entity like givesendgo is not registering with fintrac.

>What's the source that the government used the leak to find the accounts?

Chrystia Freeland and marco mendicino.

> The account seizure also required emergency powers.

Court ruled the use of Emergencies Act against convoy protests was unreasonable, violated Charter:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/emergencies-act-federal-cou...

> Second, the bank accounts seized did not belong to protestors

Wrong. Many people whose accounts were frozen were family/friends who were not even at the protest.

Court found:

> The judge said the economic orders infringed on protesters' freedom of expression "as they were overbroad in their application to persons who wished to protest but were not engaged in activities likely to lead to a breach of the peace." He also concluded the economic orders violated protesters' Charter rights "by permitting unreasonable search and seizure of the financial information of designated persons and the freezing of their bank and credit card accounts."

Emergency powers which were deemed as unreasonable and violated the charter rights by admission of the Federal court.

I can't believe that people are defending that.

https://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/cnt/trnsprnc/brfng-mtrls/prlm...

> Second, the bank accounts seized did not belong to protestors, as the leaders of that siege were convicted of mischief, two of which are being sentenced today.

"There were arrests, therefore this was not a valid protest" is a very dangerous argument to be making, and I furthermore strongly doubt that you would apply this standard consistently to causes you endorse.

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