How the US got left behind in the electric car race | Hacker News Reader

How the US got left behind in the electric car race

bbc.com

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Tariffs in a rapidly growing and innovative industry always makes the country with lots of protectionism end up with less competitive products because they’ve removed the competitive pressures from everywhere else in the world.

We were left behind because we shelter our own car companies in a gentle cradle where they don’t have to compete. Both parties did this while saying they wanted to “level the playing field” but chose rates that were protectionist and made competitive products prohibitive not rates that actually created a level field.

We were left behind because we tried to protect our companies from facing the future. People in this country expect that one can stand on the shore of a beach and vote on whether the tide should go in or out, and that’s just not how the world works.

The role for protectionism is in the early stages of government subsidized and promoted industries, but it has to be matched by ruthless cutting of subsidy for the lower performers. And eventually there has to be competition with the global market to ensure performance.

Taking a mature industry and adding protectionism because of underperformance is a disaster on all fronts.

We were in the middle of a huge industrial investment buildout, absolutely untold of in modern history, for solar and batteries. But with the goal of undoing anything the prior administration has done, we are abandoning the good that a little protectionism could have for a growing battery and solar industry in the US.

We are toast without big changes. The world is leapfrogging us, and with every dozen GW of solar and batteries that China exports, it is permanently lowering demand for US natural gas and oil, which will eventually torpedo the industry, or leave the US with far higher energy prices than the rest of the world, both of which are disastrous for industry.

Yep, precisely. It really blows my mind to see so many people who normally support a free market suddenly forget (or ignore) what effect a tariff has on a market. Somehow it's now become a hammer and every problem is a nail.

I get that there are some real (or perceived) issues that are trying to be solved with these tariffs, but that doesn't magically make the realities of what tariffs do to a market go away. "Just do something" is a good way to get a "solution" that makes you worse off.

Especially people that are usually anti-tax!

Tariffs are the worse sort of tax, massive amounts of deadweight loss, and a burden specifically on the pooorest. Perhaps that second part is why they are so popular.

China has a hyper protected domestic market. There is no other major economy in the world as shielded from foreign competition as China.

How does that fact correlate to China's EV segment booming?

> China has a hyper protected domestic market

When I was in China, I saw Teslas everywhere and iPhones too. It seems there are products that can still compete in China against strong domestic brands. The country hasn't really been hyper protected for a few years now. I mean, majority of the products from around the world are basically produced there so they are not even looking at tarrifs, besides that many industries no longer require joint ventures, much of Africa has tariff free access etc.

> China has a hyper protected domestic market

For B2B maybe (i don't know about "hyper", and services and software are outside of this protection for sure). For consumers/customers, China is freer than the US.

How are U.S. automakers "ruthlessly competing" in the global market otherwise? Can you name a single American car that competes well overseas? I know the F-150 did at one time but I don't know if that's even true anymore given that what was once Ford's workhorse has been turned into a luxury SUV for suburbanites cosplaying as blue collar workers occasionally.

Most American OEMs are now all but entirely in the SUV/pickup truck markets precisely because the Asian makes already kick the shit out of them in every other category. Several prominent brands have nothing on sale but SUVs right now! And they're STILL going broke.

Many arguing in favor of tarrifs note that it is not a free market. China is definitely playing to dominate with government assistance deep in the supply chain on up.

There has been plenty of evidence that total government assistance to automakers has been at the same level in the USA, including the huge bailouts.

Not remotely. It's fair to point out that it exists, especially given the bailout, but China's sponsorship of their local manufacturing is a whole other level. We're talking direct subsidies and grants to OEMs, consumers getting trade in subsidies, huge tax rebates and exemptions, financing, infrastructure support, and long term industrial planning. Similar things exist in the US, but the biggest thing though is that it's stable and not capricious, unlike the current US administration. China's support is enormous, like $230 billion over 15 years, and it's ongoing, not some random one-offs, like cash for clunkers.

The scale is not even close to comparable.

Not disagreeing re: the impact of tariffs.

But our problems started before tariffs. If you look at the graph in the article, things started diverging around 2018. You can see all other countries taking off, leaving the US in the dust.

And the (small) US increase dropped even more around 2023.

But we were already behind.

EV infrastructure is terrible. I've been hoping to trade our second vehicle (that is ICE) in for an EV, so that both our vehicles are EV.

But until the infrastructure improves, we have no choice but to hold onto at least one ICE vehicle for anything longer than a daily commute.

And US makers can't sell EVs when most Americans are still dealing with range anxiety due to lack of infrastructure.

Needing an app for every different charger's owner is terrible. They're shooting their own feet with that one. It should be as simple as a gas station. Drive up, swipe credit card, and pump watts. (To their credit, some of them are now.) What I think is a bigger problem though is that the non-Tesla options just aren't well integrated. Tesla doesn't let you use Android/Apple integration, and they have their own navigation . This is annoying to some, but their built in navigation accounts for the battery level. It tells you how much charge you've got, how much you'll have when you get there, and if it's not enough, it guides you towards all possible charging options along your route, and, knowing that, preconditions the battery for being charged when you get to the charger. This makes what infrastructure there is, way more useful. Because charging takes longer and is more sparse than gas stations, it's a necessary integration. My limited experience with non-tesla EVs says they don't have that level of integration, which is a whole problem, but I'd love to hear other's experiences there.

Yeah, 100% to this too. My wife won't even charge our EV away from home due to the issues we've run into with the various apps.

Not only are they all different, they sometimes just fail. And this is sometimes an app issue, but it's also often a charger issue. We had to literally drive an hour away, with only about 15% remaining, to get to a working charger one time, because we couldn't get either of the two chargers working at the place we often stop by.

Not only was that a big inconvenience, it was stressful not knowing whether we had enough charge to make it to our backup. If we didn't have a backup close enough, I'm not sure what we would've done.

The obsession with apps is a huge problem with all these.

It needs to be as easy as a gas station. Pull up, plug in, tap credit card, done.

> Needing an app for every different charger's owner is terrible. They're shooting their own feet with that one. It should be as simple as a gas station. Drive up, swipe credit card, and pump watts.

The EU now requires that for all new chargers installed. Like, this is a problem easily solved with regulation.

What? Government can be used to help ordinary consumers like me? Are you sure that isn't, like, communism or something?

Consider making the kind of EVs that they would want to buy, even if they’re not the kind that fit some compliance profile or exist as the dominant “option”?

I’d not mind something akin to a modernized take on the Crown Vic, or something that has a decidedly American shape and non-luxury price tag to it.

What tariffs? Are you referring to EV subsidies and general protectionism like export restraints on Japan? Or blaming all of this on very recent changes?

We've had protectionist tariffs for the auto industry for decades: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_tax

The US didn't have electric vehicle protectionism until relatively recently? Not more than any other type of vehicles. The NHTSA and crash testing standards limit what cars can come to our shores, often to our detriment. Americans are dumbasses and have allowed government to way over-regulate the auto industry. Just look how much of the price of a car involves government mandates these days. It's obscene.

So...China. They have zero standards for anything. The cars probably do poorly in crashes. The industries making the batteries pollute the shit out of everything. The batteries probably don't last as long as indicated, probably half as many cells as was advertised. The tires are thinner, the glass is thinner, the paint is barely applied. Is this really what we want?

There has to be some middle way.

> They have zero standards for anything. The cars probably do poorly in crashes

That might have been true a decade+ ago, but in recent years, nearly every car coming from China makes it to the top of the Euro NCAP rankings [1]. The current top 10 standing for 2025 is:

    1. Model 3 (DE)
    2. Firefly / Nio
    3. Smart #5
    4. Lynk & Co 02
    5. Polestar 3
    6. Zeekr 7x
    7. Togg T10x (TR)
    8. IM IM6
    9. Audi A6 (DE)
    10. Voyah Courage

7/10 are from China. The list goes on with even cheaper models from BYD/Vinfast/etc outperforming most of the classic automakers. The Nio ET5 from 2023 is still one of the safest cars ever made, and it was evaluated right at the time the EU introduced much stricter safety regulations.

[1] https://www.euroncap.com/en/ratings-rewards/latest-safety-ra...

I dunno, the Chinese cars available in the UK seem to do ok in crash tests and in reviews too, e.g. 5 star crash rating for the byd dolphin https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/byd/dolphin/50011 MG EV4 gets 8/10 review while VW id3 gets 7/10 https://www.topgear.com/car-reviews/mg-motor-uk/mg4

I've driven a MG ZS EV for a month a year or two ago and it was an equal in terms of "feel" to my current to VW id3, but way better equipped. The tyres are just normal bridgestones or michellins etc.

Can't comment on the paint or if they're lying about the battery capacity, but they genuinely seem like decent cars, at least the ones in the UK. I am sure there are cheaper-made ones for the domestic china market, but the export stuff seems good.

Too much of the debate is taken up by regulations are good vs bad. The focus should be on drafting regulations that make sense. The US doesn't allow small trucks due to EPA classification so didn't make any until this recent crop of EVs started popping up.

RE China: They also make the cheapest and best qualities Telsa which are shipped around the world. They can make the best and worst quality depending on your price point.

I think there's a balance to consider. Not having protectionism destroys industries locally which is why manufacturing in the US has declined significantly since the 80s.

Theres a video on YouTube of some people who got to drive a bunch of Chinese EVs/hybrids in Alaska and aside from some quality and i18n issues, the US is absolutely cooked here.

That's very interesting to me, as having lived in Alaska, I can't imagine EVs being your only option there. There are plenty of routes with >500 miles between gas stations. If you don't bring extra fuel cans, you are gambling big time. I would imagine there are even less charging stations. Hybrids obviously wouldn't have that problem, though I haven't heard much about Chinese hybrids.

Not all routes see equal traffic and any route with > 500 miles between gas stations is going to see insignificant traffic. Those who drive it already need specialized equipment. It will not have an effect on the market of cars in Alaska.

What specialized equipment do you think you need to drive 500 miles on a paved roadway? You do realize there's places that are pretty close to that driving across the US even if there are gas stations, there aren't EV stations.

You named the specialized equipment yourself:

> If you don't bring extra fuel cans, you are gambling big time.

Fuel cans have not been standard traveling equipment for nearly a century, back when gas stations were even rarer than charging stations are now.

It a route has >500 miles between gas stations it's not seeing much traffic.

It should not be odd to see EVs when they meet the needs of >95% of the Alaskan population, and when most households have multiple vehicles anyway.

When the EV is significantly more expensive than a fossil fuel vehicle it makes perfect sense. Most people can't handle the cost of a battery replacement out of pocket for an EV when it will eventually need one.

Not to mention, there are plenty of routes in the US where an EV really isn't a good option... hell, going from Reno to Portland, I run low on fuel in a gas powered car during one particular stretch. I can make that drive within a day pretty comfortably... with an EV, that's a multi-day trip with additional expenses and stops on a much longer, less scenic route.

Do they have electricity? They could become EV stations if they needed to. Much easier to sell electricity than different kinds of combustible.

Not in between, no power lines, no houses, businesses, no cell towers. 500 miles with nothing other than a barely passable road. Often the road is seasonal and not passible in the summer (mud).

Not if you want cars to be able to do more than a home charge in the US. Fast chargers require a LOT of power generation and delivery... more than a lot of homes. With combustibles, you drive a large tank to the site, park it, sell the fuel assuming there isn't a permanent tank in place. You can't just drive a large power plant into position, drop it off and all the power lines themselves magically appear along with it.

>If you don't bring extra fuel cans, you are gambling big time.

They brought a trailer with diesel generators with them.

My parents neighbors (in France) are buying BYD, the west is cooked

While a big deal is made about BYD in Europe, and they _are_ growing fast, VW Group still dominates the EV space fairly convincingly.

The media coverage tends to focus on BYD vs Tesla, presumably because they're interesting new companies vs boring old Volkswagen, but neither are the market leader.

I live in Puerto Rico. Electrics don’t make a ton of sense here cause our grid is very strained. I got a used plugin hybrid Lincoln aviator for like 25k. I only got the plugin hybrid because it and electric vehicles are exempt from import duties. I basically never use gas cause the island is so small. I think it’s the best option for island life

Hawaii here, you are right islands are great for electrics as long as you can charge them. No one here without a home with a dedicated charger can use them because there’s so few public chargers. I am lucky to be able to install a charger. It’s sad because we’re the perfect places for EVs with the current ranges.

I think that a large part of the puzzle that is missing here comparing to other countries is the US is massive in terms of size, it's not much smaller than the whole of Europe including European parts of Russia and quite a bit larger than Europe without Russia. In the Chart, China is pretty large, but I don't know that there is that much travel in terms of distances away from metro areas for its EV owners or what the infrastructure inland looks like.

But the US is simply a big place, and there is a lot of value assigned to being able to drive across it. I've done road trips where I'd drive for 8-12 hours a day for a few weeks as part of vacation routines. It's a really nice way to break away from daily stresses. I couldn't have done that with an EV... I'd have to plan for several additional stops and cut my daily travel distances to quite a bit shorter for the "stretch" days. I'd also have had to be far more careful in terms of going off-route to see a national park, or catch a touristy spot unplanned.

And while there are EV models with longer ranges, you still have to face the relatively limited infrastructure in place. It's gotten and continues to get better though. That said, it's still a massive country and will vary a lot by travel patterns.

I think the article is talking in terms of % of total sales.

Even with the US being big, most people aren't doing those kind of trips. They need a car for city use. Those people should be driving the % of total sales up but they aren't.

A lot of people in cities, especially younger people arent even buying cars.

I don't find the "what about road trips" super compelling. First, because there really are enough EV chargers for most road trips with a small amount of planning. And second, because so many households have two cars and could have one gas vehicle to cover road trips if that really is a priority for them.

It is true that if I was in Europe and wanted to go somewhere 400 miles away I'd take a train. But I don't think that road trips explains everything.

we didn't get left behind, we stayed behind

Hence you were left behind, although I get the difference is the effort exerted. USA didn't try to compete, it refused to move or made token efforts aimed at the wrong market. USA made EVs look like luxury items, in contrast with the old, affordable oil vehicles.

my point was to emphasize that we had agency in these decisions. we didn't do our best and get beat, we purposely chose not to compete. this isn't me trying to recapture some amount of pride like the guy at your local bar who keeps insisting he could've been a bad ass in the army but he would've beaten up all his superior officers first, it's me making sure that everyone realizes that this was a conscious choice to sell out the next generation in order to pad the fossil fuel industry's already record-high profits.

See the chart in the article; the divergence only _really_ started around 2016 with China and 2018 with Europe.

I don’t understand the analyst comment about whether electric is really the next big thing. She didn’t list alternatives though the main thing I can think of is a major investment in green public transport.

> major investment in green public transport.

In the US? Not a chance.

The commercial war with China was in part about protecting domestic car monopolies. Public transport would harm those mono- I mean, the economy!

i'm amused they compare 20000 uk pounds to 30000 us dollars without mentioning exchange rates - the two values are close to the same, but raw numbers makes thing look worse for the us.

It wasn’t “left” behind, it is actively choosing to go backwards.

Because protectionist corruption due to absurdly-increases in all sorts of corruption selectively favoring specific billionaires while harming America.

(Deleted because not well thought through).

Isn't China an enormous landmass?

roughly the size of america with 4x the population largely concentrated into the area of the east coast

But only a thin section is impacted by EV issues. I'm not knocking them BTW. I'm saying that we have interconnected the two coasts (and by extension everything in-between) and they don't have the same issue as us. It changes the dynamics as the earlier post was saying.

Does the size of America somehow make someone more prone to drive 2500 miles? That seems exceptional here and in Germany.

> But President Donald Trump, who recently called climate change a "con job", has pushed to scrap many of those measures, including the $7,500 credit, arguing that they were pushing people to buy cars they would not otherwise want.

There is a significance portion of the US populace that is vehemently opposed to the very concept of electric cars, claiming to be "Dark MAGA" isn't going to fix that.

I don't that that is true, it is more that electric cars still have pretty serious downsides, especially in rural areas or if you do long distance driving.

What other downside is there besides range anxiety? I've had an EV for 18 months now, and I see nothing but upsides. Environmental concerns were my main purchasing reason, but now that I've experienced an EV, that is at the bottom of the list.

I get to charge at home, it is quiet, easy to drive, fun to drive, great in the snow, no fluids to deal with except wiper, doesn't smell of gas/oil, doesn't need to start up, has almost no maintenance costs, roomier, and cheaper to operate.

Range anxiety is annoying, doubly so because we can easily fix the problem. "Refueling" speed is not the best, but isn't that big of deal for longer trips.

Are you asking me to believe that people who "roll coal" [1] are simply concerned about long distance driving?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolling_coal

> Some drivers intentionally trigger coal rolling in the presence of hybrid vehicles (a practice nicknamed "Prius repellent") to cause their drivers to lose sight of the road and inhale harmful air pollution. Coal rolling may also be directed at foreign vehicles, bicyclists, protesters, and pedestrians

are you attributing something that maybe 8 people do, to the entire populace? lol that's extremely funny

You believe the man who recently called climate change a "con job" is president because only 8 Americans hate electric cars and any form of environmentalism? Now that is funny.

Why would there be a downside in rural areas? You've still got electricity at home.

Both things can be true

What is the US behind on? Access to healthcare, maternal mortality rate, access to abortion, minimum wages, paid time off, public transport, walkable cities, ...

"Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents."

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

“When it gets down to it — talking trade balances here — once we've brain-drained all our technology into other countries, once things have evened out, they're making cars in Bolivia and microwave ovens in Tadzhikistan and selling them here — once our edge in natural resources has been made irrelevant by giant Hong Kong ships and dirigibles that can ship North Dakota all the way to New Zealand for a nickel — once the Invisible Hand has taken away all those historical inequities and smeared them out into a broad global layer of what a Pakistani brickmaker would consider to be prosperity — y'know what? There's only four things we do better than anyone else:

music

movies

microcode (software)

high-speed pizza delivery”

Had to glance up and check this wasn't HiroProtagonist's account writing this

https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=HiroProtagonist

:) (“Snow Crash”, Neal Stephenson, 1992)

Forgot one, weapons that kill massive amounts of people at once, the US is by far number one in that.

Including schoolchildren!

Yeah, I got the reference, but it was bullcrap then and it's still bullcrap now, too.

That's kinda the point. The whole neoliberal push for capitalism and market access is rooted in the idea of comparative advantages and specialization driving costs down.

Did you hit the character limit?

edit: anyone downvoting me really needs to use one of their 5 llm subs and ask what america is ahead on atm

Europe is going bed, have your fun with the karma

These America bad comments are so lame.

Pretty much every one of these is a boring example. Abortion access is a debatable topic, most people who want public transit want it so they can get OTHER people off the road, lots of major cities have both public transit and walkability, many states and cities have significantly higher minimum wages, etc.

None of these are things most Americans are absolutely clamoring for - you just want to live in Europe without moving there.

Well, maybe the concept of free healthcare.

This is not a "America is Bad" debate, it's a "There are things America is bad at which we should get better at".

> Abortion access is a debatable topic

It's a simple debate though, one we can speedrun:

Objections to abortion access are rooted in religious concerns.

The first amendment guarantees separation of church and state.

Birth control of all sorts are the best method of reducing generational poverty.

It is also medically necessary in some cases to save the life of the mother, especially in the case of a non-viable fetus.

QED: If you don't like abortion, don't get one. It has multiple societal benefits.

It's so easy to take this logic and apply it elsewhere. For the simplest example:

Desire for every human to be viewed as equal is rooted in religious concerns (see: divine rites of succession).

The first amendment guarantees separation of church and state.

Therefore, we should not allow people to view each other as equals.

> Objections to abortion access are rooted in religious concerns.

This is simply false. You don't have to be religious to be against killing babies. Many non-religious people find it barbaric.

According to Pew, 86% of people with no religious affiliation think it should be legal.

Why? Because treating a fertilized egg or a fetus as the same thing as a baby is rooted in religion. 13% is few not many.

https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/fact-sheet/public-opini...

> This is simply true.

FTFY

When exactly does a fetus become a baby? At the point of birth? There is no easy way out of this dilemma.

Opinion polls are very easy to game by phrasing questions differently. Ask people at what number of weeks is it ok to crush a growing baby (fetus) into pieces and vacuum it out, and you will get a wildly different percentage.

> When exactly does a fetus become a baby? At the point of birth? There is no easy way out of this dilemma.

The easy way is the one already taken: by putting more restrictions the closer you get to the time of birth, and not at all addressing the question of when it counts as a baby. The easy way is not making that question the focus, because it inevitably leads to a discussion of "when does the soul inhabit the body" - a religious argument.

Thank you for proving my point.

There is no religious argument here. Either it's a baby or it's not. Either you're killing another human being or you're not. You don't need to believe in "souls" to find this type of killing abhorrent.

Spare me the smug bullshit.

Dig up.

So the USA is not behind on maternal mortality rate [1], minimum wages [2], time off [3], walkable cities [4] and public transport?

These things are quite apparent as a visitor: the "greatest city on earth", NYC, has a comically dirty and outdated metro system, and walking from a hotel to the nearest supermarket is basically impossible in most large cities - which are already the most walkable places.

[1] https://tcf.org/content/commentary/worsening-u-s-maternal-he...

[2] https://hellopebl.com/resources/blog/minimum-wage-by-country...

[3] https://www.cnbc.com/2023/04/19/why-us-vacation-policies-are...

[4] https://www.weforum.org/stories/2023/03/why-walkable-urban-a...

Where do you think I said the US isn't behind on those things? Like just do me a favor and point that out specifically, with a quote.

Well, I'm confused then. You said 'every one of these is a boring example' as if they don't matter, when they have massive impact on quality of life especially for the least privileged.

I said they're boring because they're overused. The only complaints anyone ever comes up with is that America isn't European enough. I'd be fascinated by a discussion of how we can solve America's problems without mentioning other nations or cultures we should simply emulate instead.

Who wants to go walk around a city when you have a bunch of troops and ice villains doing horrific stuff to people? We can't even go a week without a mass shooting, forcing women to give birth, taxing people that make the least. What are you sticking up for?

The other stuff. Is this a serious question? You can't think of ONE good thing about the US? What is with this brainrot?

I think the negative we're seeing right now outweighs the positive. It's not brain rot when you can't dispute a single point. You may be enjoying the Biff Tannen timeline, many are not.

Literally nothing here gives even an inkling of the idea that I “can’t refute” these unbearably basic complaints; super weird assumption tbh

>Well, maybe the concept of free healthcare.

Forget free healthcare, it's about affordable healthcare. For the outcomes we get, the US has extremely expensive healthcare. Many, many other countries have better outcomes for way less money.

Free healthcare is a big deal.

Get sick, can't keep up at work so you get fired, can't afford treatment because healthcare insurance is tied to employment.

You will never get well, you get evicted. Then you can decay on the streets if not jail.

Compared to Europe.

Get sick. Have real labor protections so you won't get fired, and generous benefits to keep you afloat. Get free healthcare, get well.

Sip fine wine while reading horror stories about the US healthcare system.

America is basically a giant casino. A small percentage of gamblers win, but even they are a bad roll of the dice away from destitution.

What is this weird Europe fetishization? I refuse to believe you honestly think life over there is all wine-sips-and-healthcare, unless you truly just know nothing about the continent?

Why do you think it is fetishization? You can quite literally sip a five euro wine while on sick leave (if your illness allows!), knowing that your finances and job are not at risk, for as long as your recovery takes. There is no hyperbole there, it's the entire point of labour protections.

Meanwhile, as far as I understand, laws only mandate unpaid leave for a limited time, and only for very serious conditions in the US.

Labor protections in America is a joke.

A friend had a rough pregnancy, got fired. You can try and sue but it's expensive/stressful and you'll probably lose.

Mom and the kid are both fine years later.

Had a co worker who only took a single day off for his daughters birth as the company didn't offer any PAID family leave.

Because it's no different than me saying something completely useless like:

europe: live in government row-houses, watch national economy implode, drink warm beer

america: have some of the most affordable housing in the world (compared with income), watch national economy grow, sip three-buck-chuck

No hyperbole!!! therefore it's just a normal observation and not fetishization!

America has 3rd world standards of healthcare, for the simple fact that something like 1 in 3 people regularly can't afford treatment.

All while still having high taxes.

Crime is also drastically higher in the US. I've been to Europe and Asia. Serious crime is a fraction of what it is here.

Plus you don't need a car in most big cities.

But I guess America has more billionaires ( for now anyway).

Asia and Europe are full of intolerant ethnostates that barely get along with themselves, let alone others. It’s pretty easy to have a modicum of success when everyone is basically identical in looks and attitude.

Also, who gives a shit if you need a car or not? What is this lol

Even if I lived in Japan, I’d still have a car. You DO realize people outside of the internet occasionally enjoy cars, yeah?

And America will probably have more billionaires for ages. Hardly anyone gets that rich in Europe, and in China, all billionaires exist at the pleasure of the government and are disappeared constantly. Outside of Singapore (where you go to jail for spitting out gum), there are hardly any.

But yeah, the “for now” was definitely a cool mic drop…

Ok, so America is great for billionaires.

The vast majority of us are a bad year away from sleeping on the streets. Just decoupling healthcare from employment would be amazing.

It happens all the time. Any serious illness will stop you from working. You then have no way to pay for treatment, and then your stuck.

Not to mention Europe is much safer by several orders of magnitude. Both the UK and France are very diverse and safe.

Cars are expensive. Try affording healthcare insurance, a car, car insurance and out of pocket medical expenses on an average income. People just skip things, drive around without insurance and ignore easily treatable illnesses.

Eventually it all falls apart.

It's a horrible system for almost everyone, but billionaires.

Like I said, America is a casino. It's fun when your winning, but very few come out ahead.

You know, I can cut a lot of nonsense comments we'll need to work through by just asking this:

Which nation are you referring to? Broke Greece? Unemployed Spain? Walled-off Britain? No-government France? Dictator-run Turkey? Dictator-run Russia? Dictator-run Belarus? Economically-stagnated Germany? Nervous-of-invasion nordic states? Like, where is this utopia?

>No-government France

Ironic you bring this up as government workers are expected to work without pay during the shutdown.

France has a fraction of the crime of the US. They have plenty of immigrants.

Healthcare outcomes are significantly better.

Greece, while having less billionaires, has a significantly longer life expectancy than the US.

I guess if you're a billionaire America offers lower taxes. For everyone else it's a raw deal. The main issue is if you're poor life is hell, and it's very easy to fall off.

No country is perfect, but our healthcare system alone puts us below most developed countries.

As a bonus even if you leave the US you're still expected to pay taxes. Aside from Eritrea, no one other country does this.

    > most people who want public transit want it so they can get OTHER people off the road

Such a bad take. I would guess you've never been to Japan, Taiwan, any country with a fast, well-functioning public transit system. It's so convenient to not have to drive everywhere and have dependable transit options. Not to mention for seniors and even children (yes; kids in Asia board transit by themselves all the time).

What does this have to do with what people believe at all? You're not arguing with me, because I don't have that point of view.

So you're pulling positions out of thin air? Got it.

No, studies have shown this. I'm obviously just not referring to my own personal opinion. When did YCom commenters lose all rational thought?

    > ...studies have shown this...When did YCom commenters lose all rational thought

Then posts 0 studies to back the position...

You’re welcome to say you cannot use searches well and ask me for one, rather than pretending it’s a gotcha to never have been given something you never asked for.

Again, brain rot. I’m outta here - people line you are ruining this site.

If you claim the Earth is flat, isn't it upon you to back your claims?

It turns out that if you subsidize manufacturing less than other countries, your products will cost more.

I assume you're thinking of China. However, if anything the US subsidises car manufacturing _more_ than Europe (in particular it's always ready with a cheeky bailout, whereas European countries have been more prone to just let failing car companies die or merge), and, for all the talk about BYD (understandable; the media likes novelty, and "scary Chinese upstart is making lotsa EVs" is more media-friendly than "Boring old VW AG is making lotsa EVs"), the European manufacturers are also doing far better here than the US legacy manufacturers.

Love the doomerism, while millions of people would love to move to the US and others are currently fighting deportations into their local paradise tooth and nail.

So what is it now? Best country or totally behind?

With that, good luck moving to China.

Millions would also love to live in Europe. Does that make them better than the US?

You do not need a analysis on this :)

Simple, the US Fossil Fuel Industry + Political Contributions, or as all other countries call these contributions, bribes.

Also, I heard today the last remaining law that restricts these bribes is up before the US Supreme Court. We all know how they will rule, soon anything goes. Soon in the US, getting elected to a Federal Office will be much better than winning a lottery. Free Dinner, Free Vacations, Free Housing and a padded bank account can be fully legally had by any US Congress Person.

Edit: forgot, getting elected as President pretty can much makes you a billionaire.

> Soon in the US, getting elected to a Federal Office will be much better than winning a lottery

The future is now: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2025/08/18/the-number

But he was already a billionaire before he was elected...

That title is silly.

The US is #2 in the world in EVs behind China. Tesla leads the US in EVs, and is #2 in the world.

A sample of more reasonable titles:

1. US is #2 in EV manufacturing and sales, can they catch up to China?

2. How did BYD catch up so quickly to Tesla?

3. Why can't Europe create its own Tesla?

Losing a lead is not "silly" it's something to be very concerned about.

The entire world moved it's manufacturing to China, losing the lead in everything to them is inevitable.

> Why can't Europe create its own Tesla?

... I mean, Europe _has_ its own Tesla, in VW AG, Stellantis, BMW, Mercedes, etc; their combined global BEV sales are similar to or slightly greater than Tesla's global sales. Why are you expecting one pseudo-monopoly manufacturer? While that _is_ kinda the case in the US, that's more a function of the US car market being pretty broken than anything else.

(It's not even the case in China; while BYD is big, and gets a lot of press, China does have other significant manufacturers.)

Yes, learn to recognize a hit piece readers, sheesh. BYD likely has government subsidy and next to no regulations, particularly on the production side. It's easy to make money when you dump waste into rivers, just like how the US once was.

Aren't environmental regulations in China stricter than in the US nowadays? In terms of (not) exploiting people without any other options, the US still may have a bit of a moral high ground... when compared to China.

They (China) aren't great on upholding their regulations.. not to mention the level of subsidies and meddling that China does with their own corporations is far beyond what any nation in the world would do for the most part. From state sponsored corporate espionage to simply cornering markets, China will not compete fairly.

I'm less than convinced the solution is for the US to play the same games. I'm rather against it altogether.

this isn't true in the slightest

weird how the best selling EV in the world and even china is the American Tesla Model Y then

Tesla Model Y is number 3 in China so far this year. Model 3 is 8th. https://autovista24.autovistagroup.com/news/what-were-best-s...

Tesla's marketing strategy is to have one brand with essentially only two models (the two >100k ones and the silly truck are rounding errors and hardly count), thus each individual model will tend to sell more units. BYD has more models and a bunch of sub-brands, as does VW AG and Stellantis.

BYD sells more than Tesla now

Only because Elon acts like a dick sometimes, not that the cars are better.

Even if true, a useless distinction. You’d need a clean the Elon off Tesla and make it desirable to a large portion of people.

No, because China is HEAVILY subsidized and given unfair market advantages. It's pretty easy to advance tech when your country will steal secrets for you and completely ignore patent protections, violating treaties in doing so.

Exactly. I don't understand why we always have to bash the US. I dislike the way China does business, and I believe the greatest error of the 20th century was moving all manufacturing there. I don't know why the government allowed companies to move everything to Asia when we could have killed two birds with one stone by moving operations to Latin America. This would keep all manufacturing on the continent and result in much less illegal migration to the US. Given the political climate of the past 20 years, China hasn't had to do much to plot the United States' demise or at least become the top economic power in 20 years or less. That if the US gets its house in order and at least 2/3 of the country rallies around, becoming, cue the music, great again (I'll see myself out, hehe).

> I don't understand why we always have to bash the US

because we still can (for now?) and it's better to introspect on how to improve oneself instead of putting everyone else down (unlike dear leader's example setting)

lots of byd cars are 1/4th the price so makes sense

And yet Tesla competes with BYD for total sales value. That should practically be impossible given this is China we're talking about.

lol downvoted for saying a fact by the Chinese bots and Elon haters. get real

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