Apple Botches China and Japan Maps in iOS 6 | Hacker News Reader

Apple Botches China and Japan Maps in iOS 6

techinasia.com

158 pointsallenwlee73 comments

This is especially galling for the Japanese. Not only are they valuable customers due to their frequent cell phone purchases and rabid desire for brand-name products (including Apple, of course), but a quarter of the Japanese population (and the main target market) lives in Tokyo, where people are almost entirely dependent on public transit to get around. With iOS 6, there are no built in directions!

Of course, Apple apologists will jump to say that you can just get a 3rd party app, but that simply doesn't cut it. Google Maps provided a door-to-door solution for directions, which makes a big difference when you don't know what the closest train station to an address is. Moreover, the ability to see the total door-to-door time and compare it to the cost of the trip made it easy to select the optimal route (based on a combination of price and time).

And here are some of the amusing mistakes in the database[0]:

* "McDonalds" and "Pachinko Gundam" train stations

* A station not attached to any railway lines

* No Osaka station (this is a really big station)

* Place names in Chinese and Korean

* Haneda Airport (busiest airport in Japan) is mislabeled as 「大王製紙」 ― "Great King Paper Manufacturer" (this one has gotten a lot of laughs)

* Narita Airport (2nd busiest airport) completely missing

For those who can read Japanese, there's a good 2chan thread archive[1] of Japanese netizens taking the piss out of Apple Maps.

0: http://www.japanmobiletech.com/2012/09/ios-6-maps-fail-in-ja...

1: http://gahalog.2chblog.jp/archives/52132765.html

>"Pachinko Gundam" train station

Wow. You couldn't make it up, could you?

For those unaware, "pachinko" refers to a form of gambling, gaming machine, comparable to the Western "slot machine".[0]

"Gundam" is a popular anime series in Japan.[1]

[0]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko

[1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundam

Pachinko Gundam is a thing, too. (Panchinko machines, like Vegas slot machines and Zynga products, are often themed to stimulate additional interest over the base Skinner box gameplay. Unlike Vegas slots and Zynga products, the core pachinko customer is a Japanese salaryman, so most of the themes skew in that direction. The most popular, by a wide margin, is about a chesty mermaid and her under-the-ocean gal pals.)

Right, one of the (many) things that Japan takes to the point of absurdity is brand licensing. If any sort of media content becomes successful, particularly anime/manga or J-pop artists, you can be sure that there will be branded drinks, foods, restaurants, toys, outfits, even red-light district "services".

Maybe it's just that coming from suburban America, I'm used to spending more time in a car (isolated from the visuals and sounds of ads) and the population density is lower, but the advertising/branding just seems that much more intense in Tokyo. Then again, I've been to NYC, and it didn't feel like that - for example, the train stations didn't have ads.

> Of course, Apple apologists will jump to say that you can just get a 3rd party app ...

I don't think Apple "apologists" will be jumping in on this one. In this particular case, Apple has, objectively, significantly reduced (or outright eliminated) the usability of a core feature of their phones.

Anyone in a significant population center will find this to be incredibly irksome, and by the very definition of population centers, there are a lot of people in significant population centers.

Just look around this thread. Apologists abound. HN isn't immune to worthless fanboy comments.

Abound? ... I've just scrolled up and down and see nothing. I didn't even see many of them in the thread about the Swiss watch. But snarky anti-Apple-fanboy comments? Dozens of them.

It's official: Apple fanboys are the vegans of HN.

I completely agree, the opinion of anyone who disagrees with you should be discounted as a worthless fanboy comment.

If you think iOS 6 maps are in any single way an improvement over Google Maps, or anything other than a power play in general, you're pretty damn likely to be making a worthless fanboy comment.

Obvious troll is obvious, but I'll bite.

Here's a single way that iOS 6 maps are better: 3D flyover. It's fantastic for trying to navigate around a city while travelling, which I used today.

I like it better than Street View - though Street View is better when you're on foot and need to find the entrance to a specific street address.

So, overall iOS 6 maps aren't as good as Google Maps, completely agree, this is a debacle. But there's one feature I like.

I think anyone who calls someone else a "fanboy" is not worth listening to.

So the word "fanboy" is not an accurate term to describe anyone or the level of discourse about a subject?

You think that everybody on this website is engaging in rational, high-minded discourse?

It's easy to assume every mind is a willing convert. It takes a realist to understand that many minds are already made up based on bullshit and bad logic and you will never change those minds.

You're just as closed-minded as the "fanboys" I decry. Don't take the easy way out.

"fanboy" is a cop-out term that means that you aren't willing to accept that someone else has a different experience and opinions than yourself. By using the term "fanboy" you are very clearly signaling that you are discounting anything and everything the "fanboy" says. This is the textbook definition of close-minded.

Far more often, the person slinging the word "fanboy" is the person who refuses to accept new ideas, to accept that other people's differing opinions may be just as valid as their own. This is what close-minded is. And quite often, the person who is tarred with the word "fanboy" is in fact quite rational and has good reasons for their opinions, and may very well be open to differing opinions. But you'll never find out because you immediately labelled them as a "fanboy" and shut down the discussion.

And thus, the simple rule. Anyone who uses the word "fanboy" is not worth listening to.

Also, the lack of block numbers and no labelling of "landmark" shops - eg Lawson, Mosburger, KFC etc. - makes them impossible to navigate.

Osaka can't feel to bad - Tokyo station is also missing. I guess the Shinkansen plowed through them both last week...

> the lack of block numbers

This is another huge factor. Because of the unusual addressing system, GPS directions are even more valuable in Tokyo than in western cities. There are plenty of native Japanese who have resided in Tokyo all their lives who have really come to rely on GPS directions to get around since smartphones became common.

Not really an apologist - I think the new Apple Maps are definitely a step backwards for many - but, I've exclusively used my iPhone for directions in the Bay Area, Vancouver, Chicago, and London - I'm directionally challenged, and don't drive - so I rely on my iPhone to get anywhere - and it wasn't until the new IOS 6 was released with all the furor, that I discovered you could get transit directions through the map app. I've been using iBart, iCaltrain, The Tube App, The El Maps, --- all these third party apps.

In four years of traveling to all these major cities, and using my iPhone to get around nonstop on mass transit - never once occurred to me to use Google Maps to get transit directions.

[EDIT: I just tried a pretty simple trip that I use iBart and iCaltrain all the time for - My Office in Redwood City to Lake Merrit in Oakland - Consist of a 15 minute Walk to Caltrain, Transfer to Bart, Get off at 17th and Broadway. Should be simple - Train to Bart, Bart to 17th.

The answer in Google Maps: "Directions Not Available. Directions could not be found between these locations.

I guess I haven't been missing much - or maybe Transit Directions aren't fully available for the Bay Area.

Edit 2: Tried this with the new Map App on IOS6 - It brought up CaltrainMe and "HopStop Transit Directions" - downloaded HopStop (Free) - HopStop provided me with a full Mass Transit route from RWC to Lake Merrit - "Walk to Caltrain, Caltain to Bart, Walk to Lake Merrit"

Actually - looking closer - it gave me Five different Mass Transit routes - Some of them using Bart+Caltrain, Others using Light Rail. This is pretty cool, actually. :-)

So - for my limited example, getting to Lake Merrit in Oakland from My office In Redwood City - Google Maps didn't work, the IOS 6 solution did.]

In NYC, Google Maps is king, at least on Android phones/tablets (I don't have any experience with iOS devices to compare with). It will provide door-to-door directions, including the trip time, and will base its directions on the current time and timetables.

In Tokyo, it will also specify the total cost for the journey, which is very handy when walking for 5 more minutes can save you a few hundred yen.

I just tried getting public transit directions from Redwood City to Lake Merrit, and this is what I came up with: https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Redwood+City,+CA&dadd...

I can't comment on how good the directions are, but it definitely doesn't say "directions not available". From the map route, I'd say it looks pretty reasonable and is what I would use if I had to travel from Redwood City to Lake Merrit.

Interesting that the maps.google.com web site gives a different answer than the Google Maps application.

I just confirmed that I get the correct answer via the website in mobile safari, but "Directions Not available" through the application.

I guess the good news, is that (at least for people in the bay area trying to use Caltrain/Bart) - the change in the Mapping Application doesn't appear to be a regression - you already have to go to the website.

More informed minds than mine can puzzle out why the website is giving back better transit directions than iOS App.

> More informed minds than mine can puzzle out why the website is giving back better transit directions than iOS App.

Probably because the Maps app on iOS 5 and below was made by Apple, not Google. There are no such issues with the Google Maps app on Android (made by Google) - it gives the same results as the website. In fact, it prominently displays several route options, along with their times and costs, just as in Tokyo. This is a little more obscure on the Google Maps website, although the information is still present.

I searched for the airports, the search is still borked for non-Japanese but they're on the map and show up if you search in Japanese. Airport codes are a mixed bag, 'NRT' returns narita airport correctly but 'HND' gives me a Nevada result. So I don't know if the claims above that they aren't even on the map or return factories are inaccurate or they've already started fixing the more egregious results. Probably fixes I'd guess.

To be fair, Google Maps in China isn't great either. See "Map View" vs "Satellite View" here: https://maps.google.com/?ll=22.637323,114.030954&spn=0.0.... It's off by a few hundred meters (the corresponding satellite view for the previous map view is actually here: https://maps.google.com/?ll=22.640363,114.025936&spn=0.0...). I assume Google is aware of this issue since they don't overlay map data over their satellite view like they do almost everywhere else around the world. The fact that they can't drive their Street View cars in China doesn't help either.

My Chinese friends tell me that there is a government requirement that maps databases have an offset. I'm guessing the Google car isn't permitted to drive around in China, because they lease maps from Mapabc [1], which presumably has the offset. If you go to ditu.google.cn you get accurate maps without the offset (but it's only in Chinese).

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Maps (see the "Copyright" section)

> there is a government requirement that maps databases have an offset.

What do you mean by offset? Mapping companies are forced to make their data be inaccurate?

Yes. The US did this with GPS - co-ordinates would be slightly scrambled, unless you had a military decoder.

Some people worked around it by getting the GPS location at a fixed point (i.e. a lighthouse) then figuring out the offset for the area.

The reason being, maps and location data has military uses.

You'll also find it's illegal to make maps of certain infrastructure (generators, power lines, dams) in many countries.

Not quite the same thing, although they do have some similarities.

The Selective Availability "feature" of GPS worked by fuzzing the time readings output by the GPS satellites. The fuzz was time-varying but only changed every few seconds. Because it affected nearby receivers with similar amounts of error, if you had access to two receivers in the same area you could quite accurately measure their positions relative to each other.

The Chinese map obfuscation scheme is basically a secret map projection (it's not a constant offset, it varies over locations). GPS coordinates go into a black box and out come obfuscated coordinates, which you then use to plot on the map. Because there wouldn't be much point to GPS receivers that constantly show your location on the wrong point on the map, receivers sold in China actually incorporate the algorithm, and it probably wouldn't be too difficult to reverse engineer.

I'm trying to figure out if you are serious about "Chinese Map Obfuscation Schemes". Your description of SA and DGPS is spot on, but I can't think of any reason that China would want to obfuscate their maps now that satellites have mapped their country.

Paranoia, maybe? But yeah, it's rather pointless. Even more so since GPS vendors have access to the algorithm.

How far off is this with GPS? Is there a hack for it on Android?

Edit: just saw this post[0], looks like it's no longer the case.

0: http://hackerne.ws/item?id=4549289

there are patches for Android that correct the Google maps offset in China. tried it there, it works ;)

It's required by the chinese government http://home.wangjianshuo.com/archives/20081109_all_maps_in_c...

Ha, that explains it. This kind of censorship wouldn't be unheard of in China and it seems much more plausible than Google doing such a poor job.

All GPS used to have an offset. However the US Government (who controls GPS) turned it off a in 2000 (or set it to 0), and it's been boon to the public ever since.

A problem I had while driving on ChongMing Island, just outside of Shanghai, less than a year ago was that although maps in Google Maps was great, unfortunately many of the roads where not built in the south part of island by then. So ended up at lots of dead ends and huge construction sites.

Not saying AutoNavi is better in that regard, but will give more testing. From my limited testing though it seemed to handle searches in Chinese a tad better (hopefully).

The offset is still there on ditu.google.cn, it's just that they've also munged the satellite imagery to have the same offset.

Nothing in this space can be great in China; accurate maps are illegal.

Japan under iOS 6, on the other hand, is pretty inexcusable. Japan has led the world in map accuracy and detail since the dawning of the GPS era.

I don't have a source handy but China has been known to censor highly accurate map data because they considered it a threat to national security. I've seen satellite photos overlayed with map data where almost all the streets were off by many meters or were slightly skewed.

This is making me seriously reconsider buying an iPhone 5 when it becomes available here in Poland next week. Maps are a vital part of my smartphone activities, and Google's offering have been really impressive.

If Apple can't get this right for a market as big and smartphone-friendly as Japan, I'm struggling to think how they'll do so for Poland.

Edit: just to clarify, I don't care in the slightest about the 3d-image errors, but the problems with directions look incredibly painful, missing roads will be a huge hindrance, and the disappearance of points of interests, well, that's just plain annoying.

The easy workaround for the moment would be to place a shortcut to maps.google.com on your iPhone home screen. Then you don't need to use the default maps if you feel they aren't up to scratch.

People keep saying this, but it isn't anywhere close. The web interface is buggy (it doesn't respond to all the clicks) and much more importantly, if you click on an address in any other app, it will take you to Apple maps.

A good chunk of my navigating is looking up addresses in other apps (like Yelp) and then clicking on them.

This is now horribly broken and there is no workaround.

I'm guessing the only short term solution (if Google doesn't release an app) will be jailbreaking the phone and replacing Apple Maps with the old iOS 5 Google Maps app. Someone will probably come up with a way to do that soon.

Even if Google releases a standalone maps app, isn't his Yelp address example still a non-starter? It has been a long time since I was a daily iOS user (iPhone 3G), but unless things have changed drastically it doesn't have an Android-like Intent system and I doubt Apple will make the default action for clicking addresses in other apps be to start Google Maps now.

I'm not sure how it is done but the app AroundMe has, since 2009, shown me the location on the maps app but has also always given a "Route Using" option which has all the GPS apps on my phone including the maps app. Selecting the navigon feom there starts the navigation to that address using navigon.

> isn't his Yelp address example still a non-starter?

Yes, without jailbreaking it won't be possible.

That presumably won't be a good option in the short term. It often takes several months for a good untethered jailbreak to be released, and they're usually one iOS minor release behind (since Apple always tries to plug the jailbreak holes).

The easy workaround for the moment would be to place a shortcut to maps.google.com on your iPhone home screen.

Not owning an iPhone at present, how well does Google Map's website work on the iPhone? Any integration with current location, direction I'm facing and all that kind of stuff?

The website works terribly. You can use it, but it's far slower to pan than the old Maps app and you seem to have to tap a few times for half the interface to function properly.

If I were you I'd wait a bit to see what the next Nexus offers, and/or for Google's version of Maps which is sure to come out on iOS soon-ish (though lacking the level of integration Apple Maps provides).

I'm kinda debating inside my head seeing what the Nokia Lumia 920 looks like - comes out about a month from now. Basically, I've grown to really dislike small petty and insignificant stuff on Android (e.g. icon sizes), so if there's a change with something that does the job properly, I'm game for it.

They made another mistake for Hong Kong.. The maps are in English only... many Taxi drivers won't be able to take you where you want because they only know it in Chinese and pointing it out on an English only map doesn't help.

You'll have "Display English Names Only" enabled. If you go into the Settings app, select "Maps", and make sure "Always English" is set to Off you'll get non-English street names for non-English countries (Hong Kong, Japan, China, Saudi Arabia, etc etc).

Yep, it works, but not easily usable because for non chinese readers, you would have to type the search in English, and then leave the app to switch it to chinese for the taxi driver (and switch it back to English to do your next search).

What a disaster for Apple. But of course Apple can't admit fault and the people who are screwed are the users.

Steve would have never let this application go through.

Just as Steve never allowed a Japan launch with a botched autocomplete feature, he never let the phone ship without standard emoticons support, he never let a phone application that crashes when taking calls go through, just as he never would have replaced a locally working voice control system with a half botched network based voice assistant.

Apple's 1.0 products were all just so polished until now.

This is the first time perhaps that the new feature has to match solid expectations, but it's still a 1.0 feature. Sorry for the tone, but why all the drama on something that isn't either a surprise nor a unfixable problem...

I don't know what it is about Apple that invokes such delusion. Apple has had plenty of unpolished 1.0 releases including a pretty big one - OSX.

I am wondering if it's because of Steve Jobs death that is causing people to almost look for something/anything that show signs of Apple's impending implosion.

The fact that Steve let "Ping" go through means we should probably stop using the "Steve would have never let XYZ go through" meme ...

Ping wasn't exactly a mission-critical application, was it?

A lot of people have been wondering when Steve's absence will really show. I think Apple's been coasting just fine this last year, but iOS 6 is the first clear signal that they risk losing their way - or already have lost their way.

Personally, as a Linux/Android person, I thought Apple would be fine and had diminished Steve's influence in my head. I may have been wrong.

Eh, if he was gone before the iPhone 4 people would have said the same thing about "antennagate".

Exactly. Every botch Apple makes now will be attributed to Jobs being gone/.

I think this is different because it was pretty difficult to reproduce that antennae problem if you never put your hand in that spot. This Maps app is the only Maps app now and it's missing a lot of features.

Steve wouldn't have let this happen because it's a poor product and it's obvious (everyone uses Maps).

ok then -MobileMe and that was a paid service. The only person who knows what Steve Jobs would or would not have done was Steve Jobs. Stop pretending like you (or anyone else) does.

Ping?

OSX, iPad, MobileMe, Motorola iTunes, Retina MBP etc. All have had major flaws in their 1.0 release.

The only people who say "Steve wouldn't have let this happen" are people who know nothing about Apple or Steve Jobs. Hint: "real artists ship"

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you didn't personally know SJ. If that's correct, then you can't say anything about what he would or wouldn't have done.

Apple made mistakes and missteps with SJ at the helm; they'll make mistakes and missteps with someone else at the helm. It really is as simple as that.

Do you think Steve would have tested the new map application in all countries iPhones are sold? I am sure Steve would have taken same decision as he have already took 'thermonuclear` stance against Android hence indirectly Google.

Don't forget: release early, release often is TheRightWayToDoIt!

Problem is that it is the content that Apple have no control. Main reason of Apple's great user experience is full control over every aspect of hardware/application. Apple should have heavily tested TomTom's map data across various country before ditching Google map. Ironically Apple is getting same criticism as Microsoft got over the year for BSOD in Windows(most of the time it was for faulty driver/hardware which Microsoft didn't control).

The fault isn;t tomtom's map data, it's all the layers on top that Apple have to add to it. Tom Tom's data (they acquired Teleatlas) is one of the two best resources (the other being Navteq) for map data. How you use the map data is the problem and Apple haven't got it right this time, I would guess most of the testing was completed in the USA, so I would expect most major cities to be fairly fine. It's once you go internationally it gets bad.

I used to work on these types of issue half a decade ago (2007), and one way of testing the accuracy is to stream GPS data in and test that it worked ok. We did this by - a)Test programme that could load and play GPS commutes. Connect to the phone as a bluetooth GPS device. PLay the commute (from multiple countries. b) on the phone - intercept the screen signal, using another programme, check the screen automatically to make sure the map was on the road (reading for road names and POI for more robust testing) We could run mapping/navi tests around the world without having to leave our desks. (This testing was done for the Nokia N95/N82.. I left in 2008)

This doesn't seem a very good strategy for a hardware product such as the iPhone though and definitely not the modus operandi of Apple.

Releasing once a year and making improvements over time is definitely the modus operandi at Apple when it comes to iOS software and devices.

Another part of Steve playing god giving each country an island of its own?

Did use iOS 6 in China a month ago... pure garbage. Mapquest was better 5 years ago.

Do you know if you used TomTom or AutoNavi maps? In my limited testing not long ago TomTom was pretty bad here in China and AutoNavi was like a black hole out side of it.

Quite annoying. Here are some alternatives for people (like me) living in Japan:

* Bookmark the normal maps.google.com page on the front page

* Foursquare

* Japan Map - 'Free for a limited time' https://itunes.apple.com/jp/app/japan-map-itsumo-navi/id3066...

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