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Comment by cletus | Hacker News Reader

Since the passing of Steve Jobs there has understandably been a lot of speculation about what will happen to Apple given Steve's laser-like focus on user experience above almost all else. Some self-proclaimed "power users" did of course rail against the Apple ecosystem but like most things Apple does (did?) it was right most of the time for most users.

I've been an avid iPhone user since the iPhone 4 and have bought every iPad so far. iOS 6 may mark a turning point to me such that the 4S that I have now may well be my last iPhone. My phone for me is probably beyond anything else a way of getting places (ie maps). Even more than phone calls, SMS or the Internet.

I sympathize with the position that Apple wants to control the entire experience but I really am dumbfounded that they've sacrificed user experience to do it. So much so that I don't think I want to update to iOS 6.

When compared to Android, the one remaining pillar for the iPhone for me is battery life. The 4S simply trumps any Android I've used or witnessed to date. I typically have to charge my phone only every 2-3 days. The Droid I have (which admittedly was a terrible phone) is lucky to last a day. The Galaxy S3 is better but still...

I look forward to the next Android phone running out-of-the-box 4.1 (or whatever the latest release is at that point).

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I'd also recommend to base your decision on the overall service you get over the 1-2 years you'll own your phone. I've had an Android phone the past 2 years and am completely disillusioned with Android/Google/HTC. Everything is great for a few months, then issue after issue kept piling up.

For example, the first system update my phone had problems installing. It took two weeks of Googling and Verizon store visits to figure out that I had to do a factory reset for it to work. The second system update has been lingering on my phone for about 3 months. The install process simply never finishes, no matter what I do.

Second, apps simply stop working one by one. Flipboard doesn't manage to load images anymore. Wunderlist can't sync anymore. Installing Instagram breaks the built-in camera and gallery completely. Lots of random errors in other apps. The weather app stopped automatically refreshing. The alarm app doesn't go off anymore. Not to mention the application cache limitation to 150MB. So even though I have 500MB available storage, I can't install more apps, since they don't have room for temporary files. If that's full, apps simply stop working (only fix I found was a 1-hour phone-rooting process).

The touchscreen sometimes stops responding (off/on fixes that). Tapping a bookmark on my home screen loads the browser, but not the actual link. The phone randomly restarts at times. The unlock screen started misbehaving recently. And on and on.

In comparison, my 4 year old iPod Touch is more reliable and more fun to use than my 2-year old HTC. My 3.5 year old MacBook just upgraded to iOS6 and everything runs smooth as butter.

So my experience is that Android phones get worse over time, and Apple devices get better over time (or at least stay the same). Of course, your experience may differ, and maybe Android is more mature by now. But I'd highly recommend not to base a switch on a few features, but to take the overall service you will receive over two years into consideration.

Wow, can I ask which Android version/HTC phone you're using? I kept my HTC Incredible from 3~4 years ago rooted for development and sometimes as a music player in the gym. All of my apps still function. That said, I don't use it everyday nor as a phone so the issues may just be non-obvious to me.

I have seen that one discussed often enough on forums, I believe it is the "Apple Fanboy Android".

It is an HTC Incredible 1, I got it right when it came out (Wikipedia says it was first released end of April, 2010). It's most likely the same you have then.

I haven't rooted it, just used it as an average person would for Facebook/browser/weather/etc. It was very surprising to see the phone degrade so much over time.

I had the same experience with my Incredible 1. It was wonderful for about 6 months until it became absolutely unusable. Random bugs all over the place. Updates not coming in. So much lagginess in the UI that the interface became basically unusable.

I know it's been said before, but there's a one word answer: Nexus. The current Nexus is getting long in the tooth, but I'd still recommend a Galaxy Nexus over an S3 or 1X. The fact that it's half the price off contract makes this easier.

Why's that, if you don't mind me asking? The S3 is a newer device and has slightly better specs (and a better battery.. the thing that led me to dump my GNex in the first place) and a larger screen.

Every review I've read say that Samsung's UI isn't even particularly bad.

Experience indicates that the S3 may not get Key Lime Pie. Even if it does, the S3's version of Key Lime Pie will probably be a hybrid bastard that looks and feels more like Ice Cream Sandwhich than Key Lime Pie.

Also, the next Nexus (or nexuses, as rumored) is likely to arrive in October. Anybody with a GNex already has a good phone and can afford to wait a month or two.

You are correct about recommending the Galaxy Nexus over any Android phone at the moment. The specs might not be as high as the SGIII but its still the only stock device on the market. I recently, had a friend ask me which non iPhone smartphone to buy on Verizon. I recommend the Nexus, he bought the Droid 4. He returned it in three days. I had an HTC Incredible running cyanogenmod that was a decent experience. I am really looking forward to a new Nexus device.

This is why I am really, really hoping the "Nexus 5" rumors are true...

I hear stories like this all the time, but every single person I know that has an Android has very few, if any, problems (most own Samsungs or Nexus phones though). I mean to be honest, I hear a lot more complaining from the iPhone crowd, but that might be more because they expect more and things like the battery dying after 10 hours of moderate use really piss them off.

I have an Android device and I really don't like it. It's a Nexus.

Oh, and to be honest as well, I don't hear many complaints from the iPhone crowd.

Is it a Galaxy Nexus? Because if not, you're talking about a pretty old device, and I hear people complain about their two+ year old iPhones all the time.

The only real complaints people tend to have about their old iPhones is slow performance, and that's pretty normal. IPhones do not have the "apps randomly breaking or giving odd error messages" issue.

There are also complaints about battery life. Lithium batteries have a half-life of about 3 years, so it's not surprising that older iPhones need recharging sooner. A lot of people blame it on an OS upgrade rather than deteriorating batteries, though.

Wasn't there a study done recently where they determined that applications on iPhones actually crash more often than on an average Android, except that no error messages are thrown up at all.. you're just sent back to the home screen so the user thinks "Oh I must've pressed the Home button by accident"

My own anecdotal Nexus experience (I own the Google updated GSM version): no crashes (although there was a brief syncing outage last night), updates are smooth and fast, and the whole "it just works" thing applies.

See my post above. In many ways, I regret buying an iphone4. My wife's experience with nexus s has been much more hassle free than mine. There are definitely things I prefer on iPhone. One case in point is that although I often see crashes on apps, they just shut down quietly and I restart. Android let's my wife know that an app has crashed. I also upgraded my wife's phone to android 4.1. It took 5-10 mins total. I'm dreading my IOS6 update which I am estimating will take me 8h (inc. reinstall of my purchases via cydia - which I am forced to do if I want the functionality that I WANT vs what apple lets me have).

>>I'm dreading my IOS6 update which I am estimating will take me 8h

8 hours? What?

He has to re-jailbreak and re-install all of his jailbroken apps, many of which probably don't work anymore.

It probably goes without saying that iOS isn't for him.

There are certainly lots of iOS apps with stability issues. With iOS 6 even Apple's own apps have started crashing on me (App Store & Game Center).

But you're right about the error messages, when thing go wrong there are very few apps that will tell you about it.

True, but if you look at most crash logs the apps are dying due to memory allocation issues, which a restart of the app clears up instantly. (I mostly see SIGBUS errors from the apps I use)

I don't see a problem with just jumping back to the homescreen, most people will reopen the app right away anyway.

That's because Apple decided that the correct way to handle a crash is to give no error message at all to the user, and just close the app. ;)

No, it's a Nexus 7.

Tablets are another thing. Google hasn't been thinking about it too much (N7 is their first attempt) and the iPad is still king.

There's a lot of work to do in that field, and that's catching-up work more than improvements. It's much like discussing the Nexus One. Let's talk about it again in a year or two.

Anecdotally, I have the opposite experience. I can think of three Android users in my friend group so disillusioned with their SGS1 and 2 that they want to abandon Android as fast as possible.

Doing an OTA update on day one in fifteen minutes is a big factor. Nerds/tech crowd can get through Android updates but for the average user it's an utter clusterf* of a nightmare.

More work goes into figuring out IF your Android device will be updated than goes into the entire iOS update process...

The OTA update from 4.0 to 4.1 was "press button, wait a minute." And far as "figuring IF" my Android device will upgrade: I use a Galaxy Nexus. It'll get upgraded to the newest version for the foreseeable future. You might be shocked at how very, very little "work" that was.

(Yes, I'm saying "don't buy non-Nexus devices." Not like that's a hard one to grasp, though.)

yes, it was a press button wait a minute, when the OTA update was finally released to you. I waited 4 days to get the OTA on my Galaxy Nexus. My iPhone 4S, iPhone 4 and iPhone 3GS all were able to update when the new iOS was released, that day. No waiting.

The OTA update was released before I purchased my phone. I don't exactly wait with bated breath for oh my god the newest and bestest. It is more than "just" a phone, but the marginal value of an upgrade has not, to date, been worth being an early adopter for any one phone.

"But I had to wait four days" is really just...really? And that gets you frothy?

4 days shouldn't. A minority of Android devices, notably the most recent flagships, are getting decent upgrades.

But even a glance at what version of Android is being used: http://developer.android.com/about/dashboards/index.html shows that over 2/3 of all Android Users are still on 2.x or before, and it's very likely that many of them will never have an opportunity to upgrade.

That gets me frothy. iPhones get 3 to 3.5 years of updates, and Android devices averaged on whole are getting what, 1.5 to 2 years? Maybe less, considering how many aren't being updated?

The answer of "only buy a flagship" is bunk. If Google supported that answer, they should cut out the cruft. But Android is more than flagships.

And that's a better point. I'd like to see Google do a better job of it. However, Google's backport APIs are, in truth, pretty good, and I haven't yet found a problem with targeting a decent spread of devices.

I've had a lot of grief with my iPhone 4. Let's see, 1. Shitty antenna - compensated with free case 2. Lack of free upgrades (Siri, maps) 3. Corrupted iPhone database meant I couldn't copy songs to my iPhone. Had to rebuild the phone to "recover" 4. All upgrades usually take me 1/2 a day to rebuild my phone, as everything is copied off and then back on. 5. Shitty iTunes that makes everything a bitch to get on/off my phone (see 3. Above). My wife has had almost no issues with her nexus s, nor has my best friend with his (inc. free unconditional upgrades) I'm not saying apple is bad, just saying the experience hasn't been as rosy as I would have "expected" given all of the pro IOS hype I read about, and the big price difference I paid vs the nexus s.

My point was that anecdotal experience is worse than useless, as everyone and their aunt has "a story".

This is off topic, but I have a SGS2 and was getting pretty tired of how the UI looked half-ICS and half-old after an ICS upgrade from Samsung (btw. OTA upgrade didn't work for me so I needed to resort to Samsung's Kies software which is amongst the worst software I have used and even with that I had troubles upgrading).

So I installed cyanogenmod 9.1 and I fell in love with my phone again. It's not perfect though but I don't think I'll ever want to buy a non-stock Android phone again...

So being a rather passionate Android guy I do recognize that there are very annoying problems with some Android devices. And installing cyanogenmod is way above the skill level of the average phone user (even though it's rather easy).

Sometimes I wonder if iPhone people experience the same kind of disappointments ... and when they do it makes me feel a little warm inside. I know it's not nice but I guess we all need to justify our own purchasing decisions to ourselves every now and then :)

schadenfreude

> Sometimes I wonder if iPhone people experience the same kind of disappointments ... and when they do it makes me feel a little warm inside.

Sometimes.

The iOS4 update on iPhone 3G was absolutely terrible, the phone became pretty much unusable. The 4.1 update made it less unusable, but the phone was never restored to its former snappiness (unless down-dated to iOS 3.1)

There's also the issue of updates being (at least somewhat) intentionally nerfed for older devices. Sometimes it's explainable by hardware or performance issues, even if a stretch, but other times it feels like complete arbitrary bullshit:

* for iOS3, 3G owners couldn't "view or create 'Invitees' on a Calendar event" while 3GS users could

* for iOS4 3G owners not only didn't get multitasking (acceptable considering the performance issues) but they didn't get the fast-switching UI and attached tools (orientation lock) or larger fonts in messaging applications (...) either

* for iOS4.2 3GS users didn't get the expanded set of text tones

* for iOS5, 3GS users didn't get location-based reminders (geofencing)

* for iOS6, neither 3GS nor 4 owners get turn-by-turn navigation or panorama mode; 3GS owners don't get offline reading lists

Samsung seems to have done it right (I am on my way to pick up one up) but the earlier Androids were hit and miss. I assumed I had choosen right when I went with an HTC phone, but I got shaftet and my Desire (the original one) never even got Ginger Bread (2.3) despite promisses from HTC. Now, not yet two years old, it has started to crash whenever I use the browser for more than a few minutes; hence the replacement.

I would love something as dead simpel as an Iphone, but IOS is far too limited for my likes (especially lack of sideloading, intents and services).

Got a Galaxy Nexus here that was given to me by Google (for free), and I still feel like I got ripped off. System UI crashes all the time, rendering it utterly useless until it times out and relaunches. (My Nexus 7 has the same problem.)

On top of that, the UI design quirks are infuriating, and this is from a guy who's spent the better part of a decade mostly using a BlackBerry. (Trying iOS here, shortly. We'll see which sucks the least of the three...)

Android still hasn't lived up to its promise, and the software fit and finish is pretty lousy. Had I paid for this phone, it would certainly have gone back during the return window.

Err... your MacBook upgraded to iOS6?

Nice catch. It's a MacBook Pro (completely forgot about the existence of non-Pro MacBooks).

> Nice catch. It's a MacBook Pro (completely forgot about the existence of non-Pro MacBooks).

Given that Macs don't run iOS, this casts a lot of the rest of what you say in a very strange light (and he gave you the chance to correct it were it a 'typo', but you doubled down). I was curious as to the problems you said you had with your Android devices but honestly I'm wondering now how much of it is user-inflicted for reasons other than "I installed Instagram".

Sure, be nitpicky. My MBP downloaded and installed iOS 6 on my iPad, that's it. And it got it's own OS X 10.8.2 upgrade. It was so simple, that I barely noticed it. In the mean time, my phone just asked me again whether I want to install the system upgrade. And once again, it did the countdown from 10 to 0 and then got stuck.

On a site called Hacker News, it's not particularly "nitpicky" to expect someone to demonstrate a certain level of competence and to question what else they may not be competent about when they don't. I also question my relatives' competence when they starts talking about "the computer" being the monitor on their desk, too.

And my Galaxy Nexus installed the 4.1 update by pressing one button on the device. Anecdotes are interesting that way.

You're on the wrong site if you can't even tell the difference between iOS and Mac OS.

FWIW, I've been using the Galaxy Nexus and it's a rock solid combination of Samsung hardware and unadulterated Google software, above and beyond the iPhones I've used in all parts of the experience except battery life (it lasts as long as an iPhone 3GS did for me). This is in contract with the Sprint-modified Galaxy SII that I also got to use, where the software was messed with for no good reason, and the capacitive buttons would sometimes become unresponsive.

Apple can’t unilaterally decide to use Google Maps or not. You do not know the conditions Google set. My guess is that Apple was backed into a corner and Google wouldn’t give them vector maps or turn-by-turn navigation.

Building a good maps service is miles outside of Apple’s core competency, so this is all very sad – but at the same time no surprise at all.

(Mind you, all this at best explains the bad maps experience, it does not excuse it.)

Why didn't they just buy TomTom with their war chest instead of building in-house? It seems to me like they would be familiar with navigation software.

Ultimately I imagine that Apple will get Maps solid eventually, but not delivering a solid product initially will cost them.

The issue isn't the Maps application, it's the dataset which in part comes from TomTom. Buying TomTom wouldn't have necessarily improved the data that TomTom would be using, they'd have just ended up with a GPS/Mapping company.

Incidentally they did buy a couple of companies related to mapping, so they've got some in-house knowledge of mapping but a poor dataset will always be poor no matter how many smart people are sat looking at it.

TomTom has been powering GPSs for years, someone would have noticed if the data was as bad as this before. And even if they hadn't (which they didn't because their data is fine), Apple should have. Whichever way you slice it, the buck stops with Apple, the biggest and richest company in the world and their world renowned eye for detail and software development competency.

Depends entirely on how the data is being used, what set of data they're using and so on. I've found that Maps is fine for driving instructions in my area of North East England, but that Walking directions are occasionally missing or not quite right.

"The issue isn't the Maps application, it's the dataset which in part comes from TomTom." ... "Depends entirely on how the data is being used"

One statement contradicts my statement, and the other supports it.

Possibly could have done with being more clear instead of a quick reply.

The Maps application probably does have some flaws, but it seems a lot of the flaws are coming from it's mapping data that's stored. This is why buying TomTom wouldn't improve the situation, as the data set itself is where the issue is. In response to ZeroGravitas' statement that TomTom would have noticed before it does depend entirely on how the data set from TomTom is being used but that doesn't necessarily mean that the application is flawed, it could indicate that the data points they've been supplied with aren't consistent for what the application is trying to do.

Apple has made a mistake though, ZeroGravitas is bang on about the buck stopping there. In the UK however we're seeing all sorts of mapping data glitches causing the issues, rather than anything on an application specific level. But it's still Apple's fault, but I stand by the point of them buying TomTom not helping the bail out the boat they're in.

I see, thanks for the clarification. I live in the US, and TomTom is generally pretty reliable here as far as the software and data goes.

> Why didn't they just buy TomTom with their war chest instead of building in-house?

They're using Tomtom's dataset, it's not like buying the company would improve the quality of the dataset.

Tomtom might just be spouting BS (and I doubt it because they've made GPS's for years), but from the article:

"User experience fully depends on the choices these manufacturers make."

"We are confident about our map quality, as selling 65 million portable navigation devices across the world and more than 1.4m TomTom apps for iPhone in the past two years reaffirms this quality."

With the cash they have at hand I'm surprised they simply didn't buy out an existing maps provider.

They've bought at least 2 map-related companies so far (Poly9 and C3) and are using existing datasets (e.g. tomtom's), but Apple doesn't actually move really fast: just look at PA Semi, we're only finally seeing their work with the A6 (allegedly, to be confirmed). Apple bought P.A. 4 years ago...

I'm not sure that's a great comparison: four years would seem about right, given PA Semi's main expertise at the time of acquisition was Power rather than ARM. Designing a custom ARM core isn't rocket science, but it's pretty close: plus you've then got to actually get the things fabricated at sufficient yield.

I am not sure they could have done things much quicker to be honest.

If you think mapping and cartography are much easier, you've never given that a shot, it's a can of worms.

If i recall correctly, PA Semi's founder(s?) were from the DEC StrongARM team - so there might have been some prior experience.

> With the cash they have at hand I'm surprised they simply didn't buy out an existing maps provider.

That's more or less what they did, the maps are coming from TomTom and Waze. The main issue with the iOS 6 maps application appears not to be with the map data itself, but with the (lack of) points-of-interest and their accuracy, which cripples the search functions. A company like TomTom is mainly concerned with maps and points-of-interest for car navigation, much less with finding individual shops, landmarks or other places you find by other means than street address. Probably you won't have any problems finding gas stations, motels or roadside restaurants and such with iOS 6 maps, but good luck finding all widget shops in New York. TomTom's navigation units do have some points-of-interest outside of what you'd expect from a satnav, but it's a far, far cry from the amount of data Google has.

As it stands, I don't think there is any single party besides Google that has so much diverse geographically indexed data. There simply is no company that Apple could have bought to fill that gap. It will probably take them years to gather even half of the data Google Maps already provides.

Still, even as a Gooner, to not be able to find Old Trafford with a search for Manchester United Football Club is beyond fail. It's the most popular ground and most successful club in the country.

The article identifies Dudley and Stratford-upon-avon as broken in Apple's app. Both Dudley and Stratford-upon-avon are identified fine in the TomTom (nee Tele Atlas) online route planner if you search by name [1]

If you compare the first example image from the article [2] with the TomTom data [3] you can see the minor roads are present in TomTom's data, present in Google's data, but absent in the screenshot of Apple's software.

This may well indicate a problem with Apple's software.

[1] http://routes.tomtom.com [2] http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/63010000/jpg/_63010615... [3] http://routes.tomtom.com/map/Sunderland%2520Street%252C%2520...

I looked up Sunderland Street, Tickhill, England on the new Maps app, and all the streets shown in the old Maps screenshot in the second image are there. Perhaps they've already added the missing data? The Satellite imagery in that area remains particularly bad, though. I think if Apple can iterate and improve the app quickly, the initial errors won't be that significant.

I have been using 6 since the first beta versions and one thing I have noticed is sometimes they show up, sometimes they are misplaced and sometimes they are not even there. My rough guess that this may have something to do with the accuracy of your location seed, and the algorithm they use to place stuff around where they think you are. I would imagine they factor it in for error correction and maybe when they get a less accurate seed, it throws everything off. It's a wild guess but based on my limited observation it seems like something like that is happening, some times it nails it and sometimes you get a WTF. I usually just do another search and it clears it up, but that only works if you know what you are looking for, which is my general use case for maps.

My best guess is there's a problem in serving the map data up to users.

Vector slippy maps run on bounding box searches - if I look at New York, my client says to the server "Tell me all the roads within this square" with the latitude and longitude of wherever I'm looking.

There's a lot of data - too much to store on one server - and the data doesn't all shard naturally. You can divide the world up into squares and store different squares on different servers, but long roads cross many squares, big objects like country borders belong in many squares, and when you're zoomed out your view covers many squares.

The server also has to be clever; I don't actually want every road in New York or the data would take forever to load. I only want the major roads when I'm zoomed out.

All these problems are solvable - spatial databases like PostGIS have been able to perform bounding box queries for years - but I don't know of anyone using PostGIS to support the millions of users Google have. It's well known that for regular data Google has things like BigTable, fancy NoSQL stuff that's supposed to scale well; I assume they have a geospatial database along similar lines. It's possible Apple decided to develop something similar.

My guess as to how [1] came about is that the user started zoomed out, so they only got sent major roads, then when they zoomed in some hiccup prevented loading the minor roads. This could have been as simple as the user's wifi going down, or it could that Apple's database servers are overloaded or have bugs.

[1] http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/63010000/jpg/_63010615...

> That's more or less what they did, the maps are coming from TomTom and Waze.

No wonder it's so terrible. I have Waze but I see it as nothing more than a navigation toy. It has turn by turn but otherwise it's pretty terrible compared to google maps.

I'm downgrading back to 5.1.1.

Tangent: Waze also wants to kill you.

That may sound flip, but I'm very serious. Their app commits the cardinal sin of going out of its way to distract people who are driving a ton of metal and plastic at high speeds (what the hell is a mapping application doing with "pick-ups" on the road and why the hell is it beeping at me for it?!). It's the most irresponsible app I've seen on a phone. I don't call many companies "evil" but Waze seems maliciously so.

This is a valid argument and one that I originally did not see. It very well could be the same case as the YouTube app (Core App vs Third-Party App) where Google might have wanted more flexibility in updating its apps (not tied to the OS).

Or the flexibility to do them at all. The old Maps and YouTube apps were written and maintained by Apple.

I don't think it's sad at all. Would you give your main competitor all the features your native users use, after that competitor has been cut-throat with your ecosystem?

It's a product of Apple's inability to form stable B2B relationships - "adult relationships" if one enjoys snarky analogies. Contrast this to the way in which Microsoft has recently addressed Google's strength in Maps. They found someone with mutual interests. http://searchengineland.com/microsoft-and-nokia-present-unif...

Google and Apple have been unfriending each other since Schmidt resigned from Apple's board three years ago. A jilted Apple is again "looking and feeling" for reasons to drag the ex who cheated on them into court. Heck, in Samsung, they are even treating one of their current "friends with benefits" like an ex.

TomTom's response, "We are a paid escort service, you can find us in the phonebook."

Regardless of the drama involved, the fact is that Google is competing against Apple, and maps are a significant enabler of that competition. Apple has to cut off Google in this case.

Imagine TomTom when they got a call from Apple. It's not as if TomTom aren't facing competition from Google, only more so because the dedicated GPS hardware they sell is becoming increasingly marginalized by smartphones. They've got to have been thinking, "This could big," while imagining the benefits from being a partner in the data development for Apple's map app.

But Apple didn't want a relationship, just a one time cash transaction so that Apple can encroach on TomTom's business. Part of me suspects that Apple got the worst possible data set TomTom could deliver and still plausibly argue they met the requirements of their agreement with Apple. There was no strategic advantage in doing otherwise.

Apple needs to move on. It was Google that did the cutting off.

"But Apple didn't want a relationship, just a one time cash transaction so that Apple can encroach on TomTom's business. Part of me suspects that Apple got the worst possible data set TomTom could deliver and still plausibly argue they met the requirements of their agreement with Apple. There was no strategic advantage in doing otherwise."

I disagree. Even if they gave them a high quality data set, that set is going to be obsolete within a year (let's say). Now Apple can either choose to keep obsolete data (which will definitely impact customers) or buy updated data from TomTom.

The scenario you propose doesn't provide a strategic benefit to TomTom because it does not address TomTom's long term disadvantage relative to Google and other companies in the mobile navigation space. Google's and Apple's mobile mapping services run on devices which can communicate data back to their services.

TomTom's problem is that their devices only communicate one direction. A partnership with Apple could have allowed TomTom to collect realtime data directly in the same way as their major competitors.

In the next twelve months, Apple will probably have collected more useful data than TomTom in many respects. That doesn't mean they will be successful in using it to their advantage, but it does mean that there is little reason for Apple to purchase a new dataset.

But it would mean that Apple would have to rely on users to report any new road construction or road name changes. Just because the phone could communicate back, doesn't mean the user will or that the data will be correct.

Maybe my creativity is limited but I just don't see how Apple being able to collect data would help with getting updated maps. I think it could help with their directions since they know the most commonly taken routes and could actually even time people's routes to find which are truly the quickest, but I don't know how it would help with updating maps from road changes and the like.

I suspect that Google can detect road construction using data mining techniques...it's the sort of phenomenon that is relevant to mapping only because of its effect on movement.

I apologize for not being more clear, but when I said road construction I didn't mean just fixing of roads but adding new roads. In order to have those new roads in your system you need to update your data set.

I have fallen victim to this. I bought a new used car (it's new to me but a 2007 model) that has built in navigation. Between the date of manufacture of the nav disk and current date, an interstate was added/modified near me. Now everytime I go by that area my GPS says I'm in the middle of a field. In reality, I can't see a customer filing a ticket with Apple to get that road in the GPS system. Even if they do, Apple would most likely need coordinates. This construction of new roads is what TomTom has a temporary strategic advantage over Apple (only temporary since Apple could get a department together to monitor all new roads).

Have you seen the iOS6 Maps problems-reporting UI? It's simple, it's fast, it's right in the place where you encountered the bug.

The other thing you ignore is that people want their local data to be correct in the maps they use, for practical reasons. I too reported new construction around my home everywhere I could, because it's, among other things, in my best interest to have my address easy to find (by guests or postal drivers, for example) on any GPS out there.

All TomTom devices can send data back - the Live and Work (fleet management) devices have a SIM, the older devices use the docking cradle to the PC.

And yes, there is a privacy policy. See http://www.tomtom.com/en_gb/safeguarding-your-data/

I think that is a bit disingenuous. Nokia-Microsoft is a much better fit than Apple-Google.

Nokia has hardware and maps; Microsoft brings in its OS. That either is win-win, or lose-lose, but there is little reason for either party to be suspicious of the other at the moment.

On the other hand, Apple has good reasons to be suspicious of Google. Collaboration with google can be a win-loose combination, with Apple at the losing end: Google wins if iPhone fails.

Nokia-Microsoft is a better fit than Apple-anyone. Apple is suing Samsung upon whom the rely for major components.

The relationship with Google came apart when Apple would not allow Google Voice on the iPhone.

http://betanews.com/2009/08/03/eric-schmidt-leaves-apple-s-b...

Maybe, but one could also say it started when Google started promoting Android.

Also, Apple-Twitter and Apple-Facebook are, I think, good complementary fits, too, and that only because their own attempts at social networking have been 'less successful'. I do not see that changing anytime, if only because one cannot expect that all one's friends use Apple hardware, and I do not see Apple develop e.g. FaceTime and Messages for Windows.

I do wonder why Apple chose to build its own mapping solution. I think the only logical follow-up to that would be that they went their own way for search, too.

I don't know if I would agree with that sentiment. Do you realize how much negotiation they've done with movie and music studios?

Apple's decision to go with an in-house map app has been a long time coming. They've been acquiring mapping companies for the last few years and have been (attempting) to build that core competency so that these kind of issues were minimal when they made the switch.

As far as Google giving them turn-by-turn capabilities-- that's really the special sauce that sets Android apart. It was probably available, but at a price that Apple didn't want to pay. Plus, Apple probably didn't like that they weren't getting their 30% on the revenue from local search in the Google Maps app.

So, in the long run this will work out for Apple. Sure, the users will be affected in the short term and it may never actually be as good as Google Maps.... but hey look, shiny pictures of 3D buildings

You know, reduced accuracy and functionaliy like that might be acceptable for an email client or a web browser (no copy and paste, other quality of life features) but not a mapping application.

Before Google Maps, digital maps were HORRIBLE. Even the first iterations of Google Maps were better than just about everything, save for a Thomas Guide. Everyone has gotten used to putting data into a map application and being returned a reasonalbly correct set of instructions or representation of data.

This is inexcusable today. As far as horrible changes you can make to a smartphone, this ranks way up there (short of having a dialer that doesn't work).

I don't want to claim to know what Steve would have done, but this does not seem at all unlike him. He was extremely focused on user experience, but he was also a huge believer in bringing technologies under Apple's control, and making hard decisions that would benefit Apple and Apple users in the long run.

I can think of plenty of things that Apple did that everybody hated on day 1 because they caused immediate pain, but in the long run were for the best. The decision to drop almost all existing connectors for USB. Mac OS X (which was just unusably bad for a year or two, if your apps even ran on it yet). The Intel transition.

The complaints continue today: the Macbook Retina display means half my apps look bad, and the Lightning connector is a slap in the face to everyone with 30-pin docks. And Maps version 1 is terrible (even though they look better than Google's first Maps release, to me).

No surprise at all that Apple wants to be in full control of every app they ship on iOS. The last time I remember them doing that on the Mac was perhaps Internet Explorer. Can you remember how bad Safari 1.0 was?

Go to maps.google.com, tap "Install on home screen". Really, I agree that this is not ideal for the average user but you, as an HN visitor, should not have much trouble performing such a minor step to get your functionality back (and Google's web app even has a few new features compared to the old native App)

There are good reasons for Apple to have their own mapping that will eventually lead to a better experience. Think about how many Apple apps already need some kind of geolocation (Find iPhone, Find Friends, location based reminders), there are lots of potential synergies there. It just takes a while to catch up on the half a decade of experience Google has had in doing it.

Well said. Apple should have their own maps app. Bummer it's as bad as it is right now, so find a workaround and trust it will get better in time...

One thing that's still missing (or at least well buried) in the mobile version of maps.google.com on iOS is Street View.

on battery life, i get anywhere from 1.5 to 3 days on my HSPA+ nexus (from play store) the way i use it. definitely have never sweated getting through a day.

* fair amount of web browsing

* little or no media or games

* heavy twitter, fairly heavy facebook

* 50+ SMS/gvoice messages per day

* 50+ emails a day

* ~1-2 hours of phone

* ~30 mins of tethering a day

coming from an iphone myself i was worried about battery life on the nexus, but it actually does better than my iphone did.

I'm always confused about people who complain about battery life not lasting over a day. How often are you not near a source of electricity at least once a day?

That being said, my Nexus S tends to run out after about 10 hours now, which is intensely frustrating.

> How often are you not near a source of electricity at least once a day?

It's a major issue when traveling, which is when you want your fancy smartphone mapping features the most. If you want to be able to use it later in the day, you have to be careful not to use it too much earlier.

I've been pleasantly surprised with the Galaxy Nexus battery life though, which usually lasts me just about two days.

A car charger usb port has been a one of the more useful things I've gotten for my car in the past few years.

that helps when travelling in a car but if backpacking or on a plane, bus, train, or in less developed cities plugs can be rather difficult to find.

I'm always confused about people who complain about battery life not lasting over 10 hours.

Get up from hotel room and leave before 8 to make it to the conference. On the move all day till it ends around 6. Starving. Time to Yelp up a good place to eat in this town and map my way there. Oh wait.

God help you if you took pictures or used your map application much during the actual course of the day.

The day smartphones can allow a user to use every core application heavily (maps, email, voice, camera) all day from the time they leave their bed in the morning till the time they return to it will be a great day imho. It isn't every day that you're travelling for business, but it's these users and these situations that feel the pain points of battery life the most. It happens to millions of people all the time, every day.

I think you missed the jab the parent post took at the grandparent post.

Just because you don't think you need x amount of hours of battery doesn't make it useless for everyone else.

Also, people who question why do you need more? Because you can do more things. Our usage of smartphones is increasing in many ways and improved battery life should not be counted in terms of how many hours of talktime it will give you, but how many hours of <insert heavy battery eating application here> use it will give you.

>I think you missed the jab the parent post took at the grandparent post.

Wait. Are you saying I missed an expression of sarcasm on the internet? Sorry manaskarekar, but that's impossible.

For one, when travelling, you can sometimes go for a while without having a chance to plug in and charge (due to not being on one place for long, bags being inaccessible, not having outlets on a long plane ride, etc).

But even when not travelling, I will sometimes forget to plug my phone in one night. It's really frustrating when it dies the next morning before I have a chance to recharge it again.

what's the point on having a battery if you have to charge it often? Since obviously there are solutions that drain less battery, "charge it more often" is an inferior experience.

The unfortunate irony is I need my phone the most when I'm away from my computer for long periods of time, and these are the only times I run out of battery. I run out of battery maybe three times a year, but when it happens it's often a pain.

For me iOS6 & iPhone5 = WTH Apple?

Maps suck for me because.... - google map links found in google search and almost every website are useless. I click these links weekly and now with ios6 when clicked these once very useful links take me no where useful( I know it's a google map link but...)

- plugging ios6 into my car via USB renders turn by turn useless...UNLESS I am listening to something on iTunes or spotify then I will hear Siri speak turn by turn?

iPhone 5... - Millions and millions of iPhone owners now have to buy more power cords after ten years of using the same one? Why not go with wireless charging?

I look forward to an Android phone that doesn't look utterly ghastly. I know this is shallow, but my phone is a device which I use to interact with the world far more than any other so it needs to avoid offending my eyes.

The moment Samsung or someone came out with a beautiful, fast Android phone with great hardware and a decent manageable size (S3 is too big) I'd buy it in a heartbeat. The software itself is pretty great - especially the camera app on the S3 for example.

I think the One X is a beautiful device personally.

http://www.htc.com/www/smartphones/htc-one-x/

Thanks! Funnily enough, I was just looking at that. It's pretty good. Any ideas why the reviews are substantially lower than, say, the S3? I know this isn't a review site, but hopefully your reply will help more than just me. I.e. do you have one and if so, what are your experiences?

No, I haven't used either device. S3 might have better reviews, but if "beautifulness" is important to you, I think the One X is much better looking. Everything I read makes the One X sound like it's at a least among the best 3 or 4 phones out right now, so although it might not be as good as the S3 overall, it's probably pretty good. And it apparently has an outstanding display, which I'm guessing is something you value as well. Not trying to push you either way, just saw that you were looking for a good looking device and thought I'd point out the One X if you weren't aware of it.

If battery life if your thing, look at the Droid Razr Maxx HD.

Daft name, but high resolution screen, jelly bean (android 4.1) pre-installed, and fantastic battery life compared to most smart phones

http://www.engadget.com/2012/09/05/motorola-droid-razr-hd-ma...

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