Say Goodbye
mooreds.com
mooreds.com
If you care about the person and want to talk with them, reach out and be genuine. If not, don't bother them with LLM corporate-speak masquerading as support. Let's be honest: they didn't "part ways" with the company--they were fired.
Right now, they're worried about paying their bills, not about making their former coworkers feel better.
If you really want to help, reach out to your network and see if anyone is hiring. I've successfully connected many laid-off former coworkers with new opportunities. I've even approached recruiters that I ignored saying, "I'm not available, but this person is looking, and they're excellent."
Being a good human involves honesty and naming things that are extremely difficult to name when you're both employed at the same place. I've had so many honest and illuminating conversations with coworkers after one or both of us left a company or organization, conversations that deepened into real friendships instead of just being colleagues.
> Don’t feel like you have continue the conversation if they respond. You can if you want, but don’t feel obligated.
Then why did you write?! What kind of "good human being" are you?
Absolutely keep in touch with people because connection is essential to the human existence. Don't "pretend" to offer connection if you aren't willing to nourish it. The pretense is just mean and does more harm than good.
It's like, conversations naturally taper yes, sensitive topics are danced around yes, particularly with people you're not that close with, but there's a grey area people play with generously in genuine interactions, precisely because they actually care.
Conversely in some interactions where you're sort of made acutely aware you've gone 'off script' the moment it happens and you realise, oh, this was always just templated/transactional.
I just think it's generally bad advice to enter into such interactions knowingly, even if you have good intentions, because of this. It's quite likely to happen and it's just an overall negative experience.
I think it's clear from context that you can make the actual message a lot more personal based on your relationship with that person, but it seems harsh to say 'this looks like an HR template' when the post is kinda explicitly trying to make a general point.
Are you kidding? Treat someone like a human but the moment they express emotion, explicitly denounce the thread and hang up?
Get outta here.
I mean, I get that it's supposed to be just a general pointer or something, but that phrase is word for word what an LLM would say when it's self censoring... Or something lifted out of an episode of Severance.
- “Hi <firstname>, sorry to hear what <company> did to you; that was a real dick move! I appreciated your efforts and wish you the best!”
- Offer to help, and follow-up.
- Only trash the employer if they deserve it, and have a conversation about why they're trash if the person is interested. If they start that, say “Yea, those guys are cunts. Especially your boss Ed. He's incompetent, and has been blocking you and the team ever since he got promoted. They should have promoted you or Stacie instead.”.
- Carry on the conversation if they're interested. A lot of colleagues don't stay in touch when people get fired. Stay in touch! You'll both be better off for it. Making friends is hard, and losing them is easy.
- Say things like “wish we could have kept you” or “you were such a great performer. I know why you were laid off, and was a dumb move on the company's part. I'm interviewing at other places now, and will leave as soon as I find a replacement; this is a sinking ship. Let me know once you find something - I'm interested too!”I've seen people get laid off or fired that, while not necessarily wishing 9/10 of them ill will, am satisfied/happy to varying levels that they are gone. These are people that are a combination of lazy, unintelligent, entitled, uncooperative, etc.
There have been people (~5 in my 25 year career) where I danced on their figurative grave.
There are some (mostly early in my career) where I as shocked, kept in some brief contact with them, but came to the conclusion that the company was right in their move.
There are some where I was immediately in contact with them, planning beers or whatever.
Then there are those that I have kept in touch with over my whole career and have essentially become close friends. We have our own private group chats, keep up to date on tech, people, opportunities, etc. PEOPLE LIKE THIS ARE WORTH THEIR WEIGHT IN GOLD.
Companies are not people. They don't have feelings and they will terminate people, often indiscriminately, over short term and trivial things like a single bad quarter or because some VP needs to flex their MBA. They can act stupid and if other people point it out and don't get a response, that either means you look stupid for not being able to see it, or worse you look like a hack that's never worth being reached out to again. That also ignores the fact that when people are hurt or in shock, they lash out a bit. Terminating the conversation just means you don't care or can't handle any emotion...
The smart people you've worked with at bad companies are often the best to keep in touch with, and you won't know it unless you're willing to open up about "saying bad things" about the company - or the people above both of you.
I can think of few more grotesquely slimy developments in the last century or so of human communications than the blandly saccharine corporate-speak that now prevails in government and business like an ever-spreading parasitic infection. It permeates nearly everything and is used as a shield by shitbag executives and grossly corrupt organizations to disguise their true nature and the many examples of mendacity that their activities really involve.
Now we also see it being applied by the actual people, real people, communicating informally with real other people inside these same organizations, even when they apparently mean well in their own brainwashed, dimwitted way.
If I ever had anyone write a goodbye message to me in which they described me getting my ass fired as "parting ways", i'd plainly tell them to shove such nonsense wording up their ass if they really give a shit about me, or about being human.
Have you been laid off or let go?
This statement "...but I doubt it will be genuinely appreciated" implies not. Otherwise I'd expect you to have written "but when I was let go, I would not have genuinely appreciated this type of response".
I have been let go. I truly didn't understand what it was like until I went through it. It was crushing. Really crushing.
That experience doesn't make me a world-class expert, I get it. But I would have loved any acknowledgement of my humanity or appreciation of the worth I provided to my employer from co-workers on that day (or even a few days later).
I also want to acknowledge that people who are former colleagues have a variety of energy they can offer to those who are laid off. The folks who remain have more work on their plate, may wonder about the future of the company, and are generally frustrated or frightened too. I think people who remain should offer whatever consolation they have the ability to, based on their relationship with the folks who are let go.
For some, that might be (as mentioned in other comments) offering up their network and helping someone actively. For others, simply saying goodbye might be all they have energy and space for. I wanted to keep the advice as simple as possible so that folks don't have the excuse of saying to themselves "it's too much work, I have so much going on" and doing nothing, which is, in my experience, worse for the folks who are laid off.
Appreciate the feedback about the coldness and tone. Lots of good suggestions in the comments about how to phrase my advice better.
I had a few other comments below addressing things you brought up that I'll link so I don't repeat myself:
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45517727 talks about why I wrote about permission to disengage
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45481722 about how it felt when I was let go
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45517963 talks more about how I felt when I was laid off (and acknowledges that my experience is N of 1).
- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45517875 what you should offer to folks who you are closer to (as friends and in geography)
I wish I'd done this more.
In some cases there was no way to. For example, we once woke up to find that the European half of our team had been laid off as part of huge cuts that weren't announced and even our manager had no idea were coming. There's no good way to do layoffs, but I think that "sudden shock" approach is worst of all, personally. You don't get to say goodbye in any way and people don't get to plan for contingencies at all. (The other extreme of knowing it's coming for a year and applying for your own job and then having 2 months to sit around after you didn't get it also sucks, and I've done that as well. You can at least make plans in that case, though.)
On the other hand, in a _lot_ of other cases, you do have a chance to say goodbye. Take it. This is really excellent advice. It's worth saying something, at very least to the people you really did enjoy working with.
There's a decent chance you work with some of those folks in the future, and even if you don't, it really does mean something to be a kind human.
There's no good answer to that question I can come up with that should make you want to stay at that company.
I'm not saying I agree with the shock approach but there are definitely some generic risks that I don't think paint a bad picture of the company by their existence.
Therefore, while these operating procedures foster an agreeable environment for our collaborators to thrive and do actual things without too much segmentation, it makes it painful when a hard decision results in people getting suddenly both very angry against the company, and very capable to inflict damage upon it.
Rather than sending "hallmark™ layoff greetings", maybe make friends with whomever of your coworkers is interested, and if/when they get laid off, try buying them a beer and actually listening to their grievances...
I think buying someone a coffee or beer in person is great if you are in the same location. I have done that for more than one colleague and asked them for their thoughts. You probably can't do that for everyone, but it's a good idea for the folks you know well who are in your area.
There's so much nuance and emotion around grievances that I'd want to have the conversation in person.
It was honestly rough because it was immediately raw for them however it was a good thing.
Fwiw my manager was the one who had to do the layoff and they did not have any issue with me suddenly taking the afternoon off to do the deed. That shop really tried to be as good as they could about it.
This is so bizarre. I would show a huge lack of empathy as well.
This is ChatGPT, 100%.
If somebody you know was dumped recently and is saying negative things about their ex, it's perfectly fine to "agree" or commiserate while they process and go through the stages of grief (ignoring any issues like their ex being family, etc).
The author reads to me like one of those perennial "think positive thoughts only" people that think that'll get them success.
It feels more like how to do the minimum possible without doing absolutely nothing.
But I agree with you that "I can't continue this conversation" is probably not the best way to respond, even in that case.
If you don't care about the person and their emotions, don't say anything. Nobody else will know otherwise (other than the person you clearly don't actually care about). Feigning care is sometimes worse than just clearly not caring at all.
Most people have reasonable expectations about how much care they can expect from some random colleague from a past project.
And the limit is just engaging with someone in a way that they didn't ask you for, and in a manner that doesn't serve them at all?
> Most people have reasonable expectations about how much care they can expect from some random colleague from a past project.
The context here is a person who was just let go. Like, not an old buddy from a previous job.
Maybe it's the New Yorker in me, but if you're not going to serve a purpose, emotionally, financially, physically, etc... mind your own business.
You can empathise with someone for being upset without contributing to further the discussion. In situations like this I normally redirect... So if I received a message like, "I'm really mad at X-Corp and Mr Bossman, I can't believe they got rid of Joe!", I'd probably reply, "it's sad, I hope he's doing alright".
As long as you're not saying "yeah, f** Bossman!" you're probably fine.
That's obviously assuming you want to avoid trashing your employer... I find these events are often times for reflection. It's okay to be critical if you feel strongly, but you should do that in a professional and productive way. But if something happens which you strongly disagree with then you have a responsibility to do what you think is right, sometimes at personal cost.
You're probably fine saying "yeah, f** Bossman!" too. What are they going to do, read your personal emails and then fire you too for expressing emotion over layoffs?
> Don’t feel like you have continue the conversation if they respond. You can if you want, but don’t feel obligated.
You: Sorry you got laid off. I'll miss chatting about your family.
Them: I understand why they did it, but this is tough. I've got a kid in college and another graduating high school this year. Hopefully I'll be able to find something in a few months. Know of anyone that's hiring?
You: <no response>
* you want to treat your former co-worker as a human being. That's the whole point of the post.
* it can be scary or shameful to reach out to someone who was just let go. You wonder things like "why them and not me, what did they do wrong, what if they react negatively, I'm busy with other stuff, oh man, is my job at risk". (The caveat here is of course that those who remain still have income and so the burden is worse for the laid off.)
This is why I think some folks don't do this simple, humane, outreach. But they should. So I was trying to address the latter worry.
I doubt most conversations go negative (as I mentioned, I've never had them do so). I wanted to give permission to people to reach out because that is important but also permission to stop the conversation if it reached a point they didn't feel comfortable.
I am sure I could have phrased it better.
W/r/t your example, I think most folks who sent the first message you suggest would respond. I think I would.
I'm not a native speaker, but this sounds/reads awful:
… but I can’t continue this conversation.
I'd definitely swap that out for (or similar):
… but I don't wanna go there. Sorry.
Also, "Don’t feel like you have continue the conversation if they respond. You can if you want, but don’t feel obligated."
Then what's the point of saying anything if it's just a meaningless single token of HR-speak sludge? better to not even write in the first place.
Obviously I wouldn't resort to mere ad hominem, but we should call a spade a spade. If someone's trashing their employer, more likely than not, they are probably speaking the truth; unlike most who go along to get along. Corporations, at the end of the day, are sociopaths, and I'm not going to pass down their lack of empathy by proxy with toxic positivity.
Oddly, this has not been my experience. People bitter about being let go tend to project just as much as anyone else suffering from intense negative emotions, and they tend to gloss over their own contributions in doing so (assuming the termination isn't part of a mass layoff).
At the end of the day, I agree that toxic positivity isn't helping anyone, but it's also better (imho) to not feed unconstructive negativity. If they need to vent, let them vent, then pivot.
Better advice -- do what's right for your and your relationship with the person. General advice is misdirected.
What a sad mode to live by if true.
I didn't say it was made by an LLM, though, did I? I actually said it is written like a prompt for an LLM by someone trying to ape what they see as human behaviours. It comes across as spectacularly facile and worthless.
<<Reference shared memory. Highlight future possibilities or collaborations>>
Kindly yours,
<<Author>>
I really appreciated the folks who did reach out - some of whom I honestly didn't expect to. But I was deeply disappointed that others I've worked more closely with didn't bother. I was already in shock, and that just made things worse.
Hard to imagine; you don't really get it until it happens to you - hopefully never.
100% this. It rocked my world when it happened to me. I took a day to recover then hopped back in the job market. But it took a year for the anger to fade.
I probably identified too closely with my job at the time. I've tried to dial that back.
Before I got laid off I was always hesitant to reach out to other folks who were laid off, now I try to make a point of it, even if it’s to apologize
Start with the formula described in the article but call rather than send an email.
Call them again 12 or 24 months later.
The script should be in your own words: Some people you need to talk to or see every day, some every week, some every month and some people every few years. Don't worry about it, I'm not going to stalk you. I will call you again in two or three years.
Then talk like coworkers about new jobs, earnings, the good the bad and the ugly, learn they got married/divorced, had kids, left the country for a while. etc etc
Keep the call under 4 minutes. Some people don't know how to terminate a phone call.
After each phone call send them an email summarizing the things you've talked about. Include the previous email.
You will find that, provided there is no obligation to stay in touch, people don't mind telling what they did over the last two years. Even if they don't like you. The fact that you've asked puts you well ahead of most people they know.
The 3rd call after 3-6 years is simply hilarious. They know the drill, the conversation can be as short as two minutes. Thanks for your time, we should do this again in two years!
You methodically hammer out the email again and go on with life.
This part sticks out to me because, in this article presumably about empathy, we couldn't help ourselves but to bring up "also, there could be incredible value to you, personally, for doing this". We couldn't resist, we couldn't make the article purely about the person who got fired, we gotta bring it back to me for a second. We need to talk about this caring outreach as a transaction.
Not only does it read like a vulture's mentality to talk bout how you might gain from another person losing their job, it makes me question the author's future communications. If Moore hypothetically reached out to me with an empathetic hand, and I had seen this part of the article, I'd be stuck on it. Is he reaching to me because he actually cares about me, or is he more interested in the potential value reaching out to me would give? I mean, he wrote it out right here, so it's on his mind as a factor.
The "parted ways" phrasing would probably annoy me quite significantly. We didn't "part ways", they fired me.
To me, "parted ways" sounds like a mutually-agreed separation.
I'm not sure what's better, maybe "sorry to hear we won't be working together anymore" but really, unless they were a pretty close friend I probably would not say anything. It just comes across as "sucks for you" while not-so-subtly drawing attention to the fact that I still have a job.
And the kind of person people want to work with.
But if this causes one person to reach out to a laid-off colleague in a way that helps them feel more human, that's worth all the HN snark.
If I actually think that, I wouldn't shy away from saying it.
Maybe it’s because I grew to be a better person from their feedback and mentoring, or maybe it’s just a shifting of times and attitudes. Heck, maybe I just got lucky that I worked with amazing people like them.
I just wish I’d had that support in prior layoff cycles as well.
Most people don't want to hear from old co-workers, from a job they just got laid off from, especially those that are there to offer fake, self-serving sentiment with a bunch of rules attached. Unless you already have a relationship with the person, you would probably have already talked anyway and it would be natural without all these weird rules of engagement.
People who do this are fake and its amazing to me they think this kind of thing isn't perceived as anything other than fake. There is a time and place for everything, networking with recently laid off co-workers is not one of them.
I will ask: have you ever been laid off?
I have, and I'll tell you, being seen and thanked, even in a perfunctory manner, helped me be less hurt and angry.
N of 1 and all that, but that was my experience.
The rules of engagement I outline are, as I mentioned elsewhere, to take some of the stress off of folks who might otherwise not undertake this simple, humane gesture.
This kind of neutered corporate-speak has invasively permeated every level of modern business, government and organization discourse, it's downright revolting to see it also drain down into informal personal communication from one human being to another.
On the one hand, there are responses like that describe this as bizarre and tone-deaf, accuse it of LLM levels of fake empathy, or say how if they were laid off they would absolutely despise getting such a message.
On the other hand, there are responses from people who actually received such messages when they were laid off saying how valuable and meaningful even a simple "sorry to hear the news" message was to them.
Though, at least as I post this, there aren't any responses describing being laid off and disliking such messages in practice, it's all hypothetical hate. Not entirely sure how to interpret that. Maybe they'll appear as more comments get posted.
There's a lot of layers here and many reasons why such strongly opposed sentiments might arise. It would be fascinating to get a better understanding of all this. Is it a personality thing? Is it a past experience thing? Is it from how a person views their relationship to work and their employer? How do these opinions distribute across the neurotypical/neurodivergent axis?
One detail that specifically interests me is this idea that wanting to offer condolences, but not automatically obligate oneself to anything beyond that seems to draw ire. Those expressing this opinion seem to be saying there is a clear, stark line for what constitutes "enough" that this approach clearly falls short of. But where that line is is going to be pretty strongly influenced by social convention, which not all people are not tuned into to the same degree, for a variety of reasons.
Say what you mean. Mean what you say. Otherwise get sorted with the other parasites.
It is far from that simple. It takes understanding how people will read between the lines of what you say, seeking unsaid meaning where there was none. I fight this constantly in my life. It would be so, so much easier and simpler for me if I could just say what I mean and have others understand that.
I also feel that it's just good common sense, too. Even if we are incandescent with rage, it's usually considered "unprofessional" to descend into name-calling. If others see us as "unprofessional," that can have negative impacts on our careers. It's usually just safer to be noncommittal. Doesn't cost anything, and likely saves a lot of heartache.
I'm fairly saddened at the reactions to this post. It did not prescribe anything that would really cause any harm, and is a basic "everyone knows this" aspect of relationship-building; done so, for centuries.
That's the main reason that I do that kind of thing. It has sometimes resulted in career/monetary gains, but usually, it's just me, feeling decent about something.
I really appreciate the post. Thanks for sharing it. You seem like a decent human being.
It's not LinkedIn "broetry." It's fairly classic advice, like I've been reading for 40 years.
Moore is a decent chap. We don't really have much to do with each other, because we fly in different orbits, but I've enjoyed his contributions, and find his approach fairly mature and sane, compared to a lot.
I feel as if a lot of people work hard to make this a darker place, and appreciate it, when folks try to encourage a more positive zeitgeist.
Remind me of most American "Christians" especially of the evangelical type who go on and on about " love* but are just bully's wearing a mask of toxic positivity and false empathy
It just doesn't make sense to me, though. I'm dumb, that way.
Have a great day!
I didn't feel particularly offended, but in my next job, I will definitely not help my colleagues as much and will think about myself 99% of the time. It's disappointing to see grown adults who are so fearful, ungrateful, and reveal themselves to be rather miserable people, but that's the way the world works.
“I wish you the best!” is fine if they are moving on to some better job.
“I wish you the best.” is more appropriate for the gravity of the situation if they just got fired and thrown into the shittiest job market in recent history.
Can someone explain the legal(?!) problems with these sentences? I'm very confused.
And as we part ways on this sorrowful day may Odin and Thor be with you.
But I think the more important point is the increasing number of layoffs linked in the article [1]. These layoffs are mostly ignored here and everywhere else.
Jobs are getting offshored and outsourced in large quantities and the tech community is on the whole ambivalent about it. Unless you were directly impacted.
The path for software developers looks bleak. While people are wringing their hands over AI while something else entirely is destroying job prospects for young grads.
[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/layoffs-2025-highest-level-sinc...
> Don’t feel like you have to continue the conversation if they respond. You can if you want, but don’t feel obligated.
So why reach out at all? Solely for the (mentioned) networking off-chance they remember that you messaged them in the future? Seems pretty self-serving
> Don’t trash your employer, nor respond if they do. If they start that, say “I’m sorry, I can imagine why you’d feel that way, but I can’t continue this conversation.”
Imagine their perspective here (that is, use empathy) if you just cut off the conversation at the mention of the actor responsible for the reason you're messaging them at all. They would just feel even more isolated at this, and wonder why you reached out in the first place. So bizarre.
> Finally, don’t do this if you are the manager who laid them off.
Well, for a layoffs, not a pip, definitely do reach out to them as a manager. I can't think of anyone they'd like to hear from more than their manager to explain the situation and offer some sort of solace.
> Don’t say things that might cause you trouble like “wish we could have kept you” or “you were such a great performer, I don’t know why they laid you off”. You don’t know the full details and you don’t want to expose yourself or your company to any legal issues.
That's right - don't show any actual empathy, lest you put the company in any negative light!!
NGL, this honestly reads like a satirical take on a sociopath submitting an assignment on how to show empathy. (Obviously OP is not a sociopath, I'm just saying if The Onion released this as written by one, I'd get a good chuckle).
Either this was written by someone who works in HR, or is some new AI slop.
Why would you reach out with a note then...? Just don't in the first place if those are the suggestions.