Perhaps this is controversial, but I think this is a mostly male way of expressing affection.
Women observing this sometimes conclude that men are horribly cruel to each other.
Women observing this sometimes conclude that men are horribly cruel to each other.
The metaphor went something like this: men making fun of each other are actuall y showing that they understand their friends deeply, because they know how to stab without hitting an organ.
That is - in order to make fun of someone without actually hurting them, you have to know which kinds of topics not to touch for any given friend. You skip the "your mom" joke for the friend with parent issues, and so on.
On the other hand, though, I have very often see my fellow enginerd types badly misread this dynamic. I've seen guys come onto an established team where some mutual teasing has evolved, then fall flat when they try to emulate that it - because they haven't yet earned the depth of relationship that makes it OK.
It kind of reminds me of another "nerd social fallacy" I've often observed, which I guess I'd name: "I can't be a bully." I think a lot of times people who've grown up dealing with bullying don't realize when they've become one. Sometimes the mutual teasing degrades into one guy just being a dick to the other.
If someone has experienced a lot of the later, it makes sense that they don't really trust the former.
With age Ive found myself much more comfortable with folks "being mean, but in a friendly way" as they intend it. When I was younger though, I never understood why folks didn't instead just "say the nice part." Like, if your friends are always glad you join them even if you're always late, making fun of you for being late with a big smile can still feel pretty bad for you. Much better to say "hey please don't be late" and also "we really enjoy you spending time with us."
With age Ive come to see that for reasons I don't understand, lots of folks have a massive aversion to saying clearly the things they appreciate about the people around them directly. Eh, their loss.
It's also sort of the same reason shows like It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia are funny. When you're jokingly mean to a friend, you're being a bit of a caricature, an exaggeration. That's part of the fun of it, too. And why it can get a point across while keeping it light.
That said, I understand relationships are about give and take. I couldn't be in a romantic relationship like this, but I'll indulge my friends or my cousins. I have a friend who engages in "countersignaling" often. Our connection is generally worth the uncomfortableness, but sometimes it is unbearable.
It's very common for people to engage in the bullying, thinking that they are just ribbing; perhaps, never having experienced the safety that is required for ribbing.
This doesn’t mean that there aren’t funny people, or safe drivers, or great programmers. It also doesn’t mean that it’s impossible to KNOW you are funny, safe, or great at something.
It is a bit of a paradox, though, that right and wrong people can be equally certain.
If you ship code that blows up in production, you failed at programming. It doesn't necessarily make you a bad programmer in and of itself - everybody makes mistakes - but if you also refuse to acknowledge and own your error then that certainly suggests a lack of competence.
If you tell a joke that lands disastrously, you failed at comedy. It doesn't necessarily make you a bad comedian in and of itself - everybody makes mistakes - but if you also refuse to acknowledge and own your error then that certainly suggests a lack of competence.
I still don't understand why, for many people, that last point is so much harder to understand than the first two.
Then it is frequently just a public bullying of a victim. Bullying can be really fun and bonding activity for bullies. That is why many of them do it.
For example, if you make a public post on social media, your actual audience is effectively the whole world. If you wanted a smaller audience, you should not have chosen a public post on social media as your venue.
Would you mind being friends with someone like me? Or do you feel like engaging in that behavior at all, even if not directed at you, is enough to make you not want to be friends with them?
They never directed any of it at me because they were emotionally intelligent people, but even so, I did find it kind of annoying and off-putting - it was just a legitimate cultural difference.
In my perception, the stereotypically female way is, if you're fat, nobody calls you fat. They're careful using the word around you. They might even tell you you're not fat. To me, that makes it seem like the friendship depends on the obvious lie that you're not fat, which makes it seem inevitable that it's going to end. One day they're going to make some acknowledgment of the evident truth that you're fat, and that's your signal that they're done with you and the friendship is over. To me, it feels like the truth is being kept in reserve for the day when they're going to shank you with it.
That's my (male) perspective. I'd rather have friends who acknowledge the truth about me and make me feel okay about it than friends who act like the truth about me isn't compatible with friendship and inclusion.
On an intellectual level, I get the (stereotypically) female perspective, too -- I get that it doesn't seem friendly to constantly remind someone of their shortcomings, and that a friend group should give someone an escape from oppressive social perceptions. But that doesn't resonate with me as much emotionally.
I think there is some truth to this old saying. If so, it would make sense that both sides find the way of the other side a bit off-putting.
They just don't mean for it to hurt, and that's the wholesome part. Every time they call you fat, they're showing you that it's okay with them that you're fat.
If you're fat, and your friends tell you you're not fat, then to me that implies that the truth is too awful to say, but for your sake they'll pretend you're a different person. Which to me seems like it really underscores that it's not actually okay to be the way you are.
You also see men say nice things they dont mean ... frequently to a women they then badmount or mock behind their backs.
I don't think it's OK or fine to be fat. It's a health risk. But I also don't think that "fat shaming" is OK either.
Weight, obviously, is nothing like this. It absolutely comes off like you're trying to be snarky.
Many men would disagree. Many women would also disagree.
Edit: I also thought that immutable characteristics where the ones we should be most sensitive towards
but yeah, that's a conversation i would have with my doctor, not an acquaintance.
https://www.google.com/search?q=women+are+just+horribly+crue...
There's also culture at play. I don't know if men affectionately dissing their friends is universal but there's plenty of related things like:
In Japanese culture you don't brag about co-workers or family to outsiders. Outsiders you treat with respect. Insiders you don't. The fact that you don't get the more polite treatment is proof that you're an insider. It's a common scene in stories where someone asks to stop being treated like an outsider by specifically asking for the less polite language. You can also watch the ribbing man to man, man to woman, woman to man, woman to woman. I don't know if there is data on which is more common.
Once they've had that fight, they both know who won, and their pecking order is established. Then life can go on with that settled.
fighters tend to respect fighters if they fight a clean fight
I have women friends who will play like this with me. It can reveal insights that neither of us were clear on without the other bringing it to light.
Of course it can be one sided too, and it turns into bullying. I think context matters and even if you’re being bullied, it’s still revealing if you are able to see beyond the emotion. You’re not your looks, your body, your mind, your bank account, your friend group, etc… Your worth is beyond these things. I hope you find that someday!
That's pretty insightful. I've had some friends I would tease and some I would never tease. People are different and relationships change over time. There's no one way to be with everybody all the time.
I seek out the social groups where people try to help eachother and where most of the conversation is towards pushing a common goal or helping each other’s pursuits. That way someone saying something negative is a signal, and the negative can be addressed. You can only move fast and in the right direction with clear signaling. If the signal is diluted by people with low self esteem who would rather belittle those who do than do the doing, then you need to clear the signal.
Sometimes those women are actually making very accurate observation about relationships of involved guys.
It is not exactly rare when "it was just a joke" is entirely dishonest and when went on was actually attempt to put down another guy.