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Comment by bombcar | Hacker News Reader

The biggest thing when teaching someone to use an iPhone - do NOT assume they need to know all the things YOU know how to do.

Instead, ask them what they want to be able to do, and show just that. The temptation is to show too many things.

Also, you can still configure an iPhone with no passcode, which is honestly the way to go, probably.

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Oh yes, you can, then an update is installed overnight and now they're presented with a non-dismissable screen that forces them to add it.

Literally happened this month with iOS 26 on my family iPad. Suddenly it had a passcode and I knew exactly why.

You can opt to not add a passcode, but the option to skip on setup is hidden, and people generally aren't going to go back to the settings to remove it once it's added. It's a dark pattern I kind of get, but it's still not ideal, especially for a market segment like the elderly.

Again, I did that, but then iOS keeps asking until it reaches someone who doesn't realize that there's no option. Effectively you have to reject it regularly, which isn't practical in this context (the elderly)

I agree with that. I was just disputing the 'a non-dismissable screen that forces them to add it' of your comment. It is skippable, but it's hidden in a way your Grandma isn't going to discover.

oh come on, you just need to buy a Mac so you can use one of the management toolkits to prevent that from happening. it Just Works!

_deeply_ /s of course

(and I say this as someone who is basically 100% a Mac user who admins Linux for a living... Apple makes a lot of stupid / frustrating decisions that I don't agree with, but I still prefer it over the alternatives)

Hmmm, I don't have a solution but if it was common for elderly people to have no passcode then they'd be a huge target for stealing them and emptying their bank accounts.

Absolutely. Pickpockets would know to target them, text whoever has the most common last name, all kinds of scams.

That's why I get that the default should be a passcode. Same reason Windows Update probably should automatically update. We live in a problematic world and these options are the least bad.

My Grandma's solution to this problem is to not bring her phone with her when going to public places, and that's probably the right call if you can swing it.

It's one thing to be a default. It's another thing entirely to employ dark patterns and annoyances to coerce/trick the user into doing something they don't want to. The user should ultimately be in charge, and the machine should get out of the user's way.

> stealing them and emptying their bank accounts.

Which bank allows you to empty someone's bank account if you find yourself with an unlocked device in your hand?? If was a criminal I'd be waiting outside their branch and snatching people's phones out of their hands right there, so I'm pretty confident that's not a real scenario.

Ones which only need a login saved in their browser and a 2fa code which is also on their phone.

I assume you mean a password that can be saved in the browser ?

Still, blame the bank, this is an issue they should have fixed even before smartphones became popular.

While Apple tries their best to avoid it, once you remove the passcode you can just open the Passwords app and see all the passwords. I wish they let me keep the passcode on device but don't require it after only 4 hours of idle.

>family iPad

Are you sure you’re allowed to do that? There’s a reason multiple user accounts aren’t supported (“buy one iPad per person please!)

Had the same terrible experience. Opting out from the passcode is only possible for people who know that words can also be a button. It’s a dark pattern urging you into a passcode, and another dark pattern for using numbers and letters in said passcode. And it happens every stupid iOS update. I used to tell my parents: please make these updates! Now I say: please don’t. Honestly, it was years ago when iOS updates made the device better. Now it is always worse. Not a single feature in the last 5 years was added but you have to update so often.

I switched from Android to iOS and I must say: both UX are completely enshittified. For me (IT person) not a problem, but for elderly rare occasion users it is absolutely terrible.

On one hand you can now talk to ChatGPT in natural voice, but figuring out how to make a cell phone call on iOS on your own: impossible (spoiler: WhatsApp calls are also in the phone app‘s call list).

Sure, you could buy them a dumb phone, but for online banking etc you do need a smartphone. Good luck tackling the App Store if you only use it once a year….

Online banking can do 2FA through texts, which is probably the least bad option these days.

Encryption by default is always scary, especially when it's very, very strong. If you forget the key, your data is gone forever. I don't think most people in the world need that level of security; those who do already know who they are. Everyone else may be willing to accept the risk that someone unauthorised may gain access, if it means reducing the risk of losing access themsleves.

(I have some very sad stories on this topic.)

What's the point? If the encryption is weak enough to be broken by the average owner it's weak enough to be broken by anyone.

I think this is primarily a UX issue, encryption should be strong but users should be "forced" to create backups of their keys, with options to store the full key in a safe place themselves, or to distribute parts of their key to trusted people using Shamir's secret sharing.

In other words don't weaken encryption, allow users to weaken their key storage after informing them about the trade-offs, if they so desire.

Users should be the ones in charge of their computers, not the OS vendor. They should not be "forced" to do anything. Sane, secure defaults are fine, but ultimately, the user should decide.

The important bit that you left out is "with how much effort ?"

Both too weak and too strong shouldn't be the default.

Regarding passcodes, for Android phones I've learned to avoid under-display fingerprint readers - they're okay for you and me but just hard enough to use that some people never converge on the right angle/pressure/duration combination to get them to work reliably. Several of my relatives have gone back to typing in their password (or to no password) after moving from a device with a back-of-phone to an under-display reader.

Mostly agree, but also - if someone's genuinely new to phones, they might not actually know what's possible that they might want to do. You have to be a little bit opinionated on how to use the phone, at least until they know enough to have opinions of their own.

Isn't that an acknowledgement that the UX is essentially worse than a PC?

On a PC, are you inclined to show your mom how the terminal works or to install Xcode? You don't because these components are not forced onto you, or may not even be installed. They are out of sight until you ask for them.

OTOH on the iPhone, instead of starting with barebones functionality and allowing you to enable the parts that are relevant to you, building your own UX, they try to make you fully buy into the Apple ecosystem. This is essentially the result of the "batteries included" design philosophy of the iPhone (which is good!) when combined with Apple aggressive marketing policies.

No, the PC is much worse.

It took me a very long time to get my parents to understand the file browser, and they still just find folders by remembering the exact clicks to make rather than understanding where they are in relation to everything else

Sometimes the answer is your parents are just bad at this.

File browsers have been around for 50 years, and they haven't changed much at all. But even if you've never used one, fine - they're as intuitive at they can get.

They work just like actual real life files. I have folders, or maybe a cabinet (drive). Inside a folder I can have another folder or tab, or another inside that. And then I have files, with data of some kind on them.

Don't like that level of organization? Fine. Just don't then. You can throw all your papers in one drawer. Or, you can just dump all your files on the desktop.

It's the perfect analogy in my mind.

I’m not sure anything could help the people in the OP post since they were unable to hold the phone, type passcodes or even use an old Nokia phone.

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