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Comment by Rogach | Hacker News Reader

I see a lot of comments here talking about "end of free computing" and similar stuff. However, I'm trying to find ways to be somewhat optimistic. There are already companies that attempt to make smartphones that actually try to preserve our freedoms (Fairphone and PinePhone come to mind, I'm sure there are more). So even if mass-market smartphones become locked-down completely, we will still have alternatives. Sure, in some ways these alternatives might be less convenient, and they might be expensive - but if you can put a price tag on your freedom then you might not need it too much in the end.

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> So even if mass-market smartphones become locked-down completely, we will still have alternatives. [...] (Fairphone and PinePhone come to mind, I'm sure there are more)

You're not looking far ahead enough. Use of these alternatives will be banned.

I already cannot use any of these alternatives: all cell phones must be certified to be imported into Brazil, and so far I could find none of these alternatives certified by ANATEL. My only options are Android, Apple, or non-smartphone "feature phones" (they still exist). Yes, Brazil is one of the first countries on the list for this change from Google, and Apple already does something similar.

That sounds quite dystopian. I did consider this possibility, but thought that it was sufficiently far in the future. Sad that this future already arrived :(

But can you elaborate on how this is enforced? Probably by requiring IMEI registration? (supposedly with a carve-out for tourists, something like "a new IMEI can be used for two weeks without registration, after that it stops working")

If it's IMEI-based, then probably you can still have an alternative phone that will use WiFi hotspot from the "certified" one. Speaking from experience here - we had a problem in Indonesia where we were unable to register a phone due to bureaucratic shortcomings, and so we bought a cheap phone to serve as a hotspot. Inconvenient, true, but still workable.

Also, I don't know how IMEIs are implemented at hardware/software level. Maybe there are ways to spoof them somehow?

> But can you elaborate on how this is enforced?

The import is rejected by customs. Yes, this means there's the small loophole of traveling to another country (which is usually a long travel, this country is huge and the ocean is wide), buying the phone there, and bringing it back with you.

I don't know whether the carriers do reject phones with IMEI pointing to a non-homologated model used with a SIM registered to a Brazilian carrier (that is, not roaming).

> If it's IMEI-based, then probably you can still have an alternative phone that will use WiFi hotspot from the "certified" one.

That takes me back, it's exactly how I used my pre-smartphone PDA, tethering to my phone through Bluetooth. Yeah, that would work (it's exactly how I use my laptop when I can't use the normal Internet connection), were I able to import the thing in the first place.

> Yes, this means there's the small loophole of traveling to another country (which is usually a long travel, this country is huge and the ocean is wide)

I'm a frequent traveler, so I tend to overlook that not all people have that option, apologies for that.

But in many countries where there are some restrictions or crushing import taxes, I saw that there usually quickly appeared a flourishing network of people that utilize the travel loophole to bring in the necessary items - some even build sort-of-a-business out of that. Many just ask their travelling friends to bring them phones they desire (I've been such a friend on multiple occasions).

You're missing the part where government-mandated apps will rely on remote attestation which will only work on "certified" phones.

I've got this covered :) I use a separate phone for these apps. So I have a "normal" phone that I use regularly and can do whatever I want with it, and a "certified" phone that has these pesky apps - and nothing else.

... Shift Phones! They even have an installer so you can install a phone OS of your liking (e/OS, Lineage, Ubuntu, etc...).

Thanks for the info! They do look nice and the prices are very affordable.

I'm a bit worried by their lack of focus, though - looks like they are spreading themselves a bit thin, they are trying to build a lot of different gadgets all at once (keyboards, speakers, laptops, headphones, etc). Building a phone is hard enough, trying to build all other things might dilute the valuable development resources.

I was looking at Shiftphone but haven't been able to identify a single advantage over Fairphone. More vendors isn't bad, but it's so niche, I think more people actively use F-Droid (and that's already niche) than know the name Shiftphone! They'd stand stronger and be a more realistic option if they collaborated on some level

I'm curious if you know of any reason to buy Shift besides specifically supporting German economy instead of the Dutch one

And would you know why they don't work together? At least on the software side that's easy to do remotely. I know Fairphone has been struggling to catch up with the machine learning and other services other vendors are adding on top of e.g. the camera sensor to get good photos. They seem to be doing better now but Shift seems to still have a lot of software bugs, eyeing their forums

Shift has more products to offer. They also have a slightly different concept. For example, the batteries are compatible across device categories (put the phone battery in the tablet keyboard) and the make sure that only ONE type of screw is needed for the complete phone. They also have hardware kill switches on their devices Shift is more or less a non-profit (their type of LLC/Gmbh has a special status) and they have a broader opinion on what „fair“ means.

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