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Comment by dreamcompiler | Hacker News Reader

> can only be opened with FaceID and no passcode backup

So it can easily be opened by someone who restrains you and holds your phone in front of your face then?

The word "easily" is doing some work here, as your scenario is already in the area of "rubber-hose cryptanalysis", where passcodes don't stay private for long either.

Fair enough. The threat model I have in mind here is cops and customs agents violating one's (US) fourth amendment rights. With FaceID they don't need your passcode to unlock your phone. With a passcode, they cannot legally arrest you [yet] for refusing to provide it.

while they are restraining you, how are they preventing you from keeping your eyes closed?

I actually wonder if it’s possible to coerce someone to use Face ID. If you have it set properly it requires your eyes to be open and looking at the phone, so someone can’t use it while you’re sleeping. They would have to hold your eyes up at that point Their hand is in front of your face. And how can someone force you to look in the right direction?

By telling you that you'll spend the next 10 years at CECOT in Honduras if you don't look in the right direction.

I thought it was common knowledge that for privacy and security you should have FaceID (and before that, fingerprint reader) disabled in favour of a password.

Except physical assault leaves evidence.

I had a friend a few years back that got taken for close to $50k and this feature would have prevented it.

- He was at a bar and got to talking to one girl.

- There was another girl watching him and his phone and figured out his passcode. The bar was dimly lit so FaceID didn't always work and at some point he entered his passcode and she saw.

- They all left to "go back to their place" and in the process the girls stole his phone.

- Mid ride they kicked him out of the Uber.

- He goes home and realized his bank accounts have all been cleaned out via Venmo and CashApp.

Had those apps been inside the "secure folder", they would have not been able to access them and thus would not have been able to clean him out like they did.

Ah that sucks, doesn't sound like Stolen Device Protection would help either.

Were these the same girls that inspired the Hustlers movie? Or maybe they were inspired by it?

Or don't stay logged in to your banking apps. I have mine set to require a login every time I open them.

> The bar was dimly lit so FaceID didn't always work

I don’t think the dark stops Face ID. It works fine in total darkness.

Shouldn't a call to the bank (and law enforcement) have caused those obviously fraudulent transfers to be halted or reversed?

How many wacks with a wrench do you think it'd take before you gave up your passcode?

Which is why phones should have duress passcode capability but that's another rant.

What exactly do you think the wrench-holder would do upon discovering the use of this?

stop hitting you with the wrench as it is no longer a useful option

Because people willing to hit you with a wrench to recover a password are definitely going to stop when they discover that you actually destroyed the thing they were looking for, thus "getting one over" on them...

Although to be fair, they might just switch to a pistol at that point. After all, you are no longer useful once the data has gone.

They do to some extent.

Holding the side button + volume button together until you see the power-off slider also temporarily disables Face ID / Touch ID, requiring the device passcode for unlocking.

You can also set your phone to erase after ten failed passcodes.

One of the reasons I never set up FaceID on my phone.

Congratulations on discovering XKCD 538 [1]. Depending on your exact threat model (i.e. barring a very surprise attack), this actually can be defended against in many cases, too.

[1]: https://xkcd.com/538/

[2]: https://daringfireball.net/2022/06/require_a_passcode_to_unl...

Is there a way to do [2] on Android? I know you can hold the power button and choose Lockdown, but that requires actually looking at the phone, which would be difficult in some situations.

I haven't used an Android phone for more than about 5 minutes in total ever so perhaps someone more informed in that ecosystem can weigh in, but a quick Google did not find a way. It's also worth checking that the same properties of "before first unlock" hold for Android as they do for iPhones even if you can reset it in such a way.

I mean, if they restrain your eyeballs to look at the phone…

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