Docker Was Too Slow, So We Replaced It: Nix in Production [video]

The modern ML cards are much more raw than people realize. This isn’t a highly mature ecosystem with stable software, there are horrible bugs. It’s gotten better, but there are still big problems, and the biggest problem is that so many people are too stupid to use new releases with the fixes. They stick to the versions they already have because of nothing other than superstition.

Go look at the llama 3 whitepaper and look at how frequently their training jobs died and needed to be restarted. Quoting:

> During a 54-day snapshot period of pre-training, we experienced a total of 466 job interruptions. Of these, 47 were planned interruptions due to automated maintenance operations such as firmware upgrades or operator-initiated operations like configuration or dataset updates. The remaining 419 were unexpected interruptions, which are classified in Table 5. Approximately 78% of the unexpected interruptions are attributed to confirmed hardware issues, such as GPU or host component failures, or suspected hardware-related issues like silent data corruption and unplanned individual host maintenance events.

[edit: to be clear, this is not meant to be a dig on the meta training team. They probably know what they’re doing. Rather, it’s meant to give an idea of how immature the nvidia ecosystem was when they trained llama 3 in early 2024. This is the kind of failure rates you can expect if you opt into using the same outdated software they were forced to use at the time.]

The firmware and driver quality is not what people think it is. There’s also a lot of low-level software like NCCL and the toolkit that exacerbates issues in specific drivers and firmware versions. Grep for “workaround” in the NCCL source code and you’ll see some of them. It’s impossible to validate and test all permutations. It’s also worth mentioning that the drivers interact with a lot of other kernel subsystems. I’d point to HMM, the heterogeneous memory manager, which is hugely important for nvidia-uvm, which was only introduced in v6.1 and sees a lot of activity.

Or go look at the amount of patches being applied to mlx5. Not all of those patches get back ported into stable trees. God help you if your network stack uses an out of tree driver.

Saying that Docker could be replaced by a simple script that does chroot + ufw + nsenter is like saying that Dropbox could be a simple script using rsync and cron. That is, technically not wrong, but it completely misses the UX / product perspective.

Honestly I've been loving systemd-nspawn using mkosi to build containers, distroless ones too at that where sensible. Works a treat for building vms too.

Scales wonderfully, fine grained permissions and configuration are exactly how you'd hope coming from systemd services. I appreciate it leverages various linux-isms like btrfs snapshots for faster read only or ephemeral containers.

People still by large have this weird assumption that you can only do OS containers with nspawn, never too sure where that idea came from.

"half a decade ago" is the nix way of saying "5 years ago" :P

Deploying computer programs isn't that hard. What you actually need to run is pretty straight forward. Depend on glibc, copypaste all your other shared lib dependencies and plop them in RPATH. Pretend `/lib` is locked at initial install. Remove `/usr/lib` from the path and include everything.

Docker was made because Linux sucks at running computer programs. Which is a very silly thing to be bad at. But here we are.

What has happened in more recent years is that CMake sucks ass so people have been abusing Docker and now Nix as build system. Blech.

The speaker does get it right at the end. A Bazel/Buck2 type solution is correct. An actual build system. They're abusing Nix and adding more layers to provide better caching. Sure, I guess.

If you step back and look at the final output of what needs to be produced and deployed it's not all that complicated. Especially if you get rid of the super complicated package dependency graph resolution step and simply vendor the versions of the packages you want. Which everyone should do, and a company like Anthropic should definitely do.

"your entire static website is running on GitHub pages? Sounds like legacy tech debt. I need to replace it with kubernetes pronto"

It's removing complexity elsewhere, usually much more. Once you have invested in a relatively fixed bit of complexity, your other tasks become much easier to complete.

Once you have invested in understanding the Clifford algebra, your whole classical electrodynamics turns from 30 equations into two.

Once you have invested in writing a Fortran compiler, you can write numerical computations much easier and shorter than in assembly.

Once you have invested in learning Nix, your whole elaborate build infra, plus chef / puppet / saltstack suddenly shrinks to a few declarations.

Etc.

I see it more as a simplicity fetish. I don't want to have to deal with the complexity of software that is not packaged via nix. It's a big headache to deal with, I need it to be simple and work.

Oh, please.

The only anti-intellectualism is not accepting that every technology has tradeoffs.