Ode to libraries (the book ones) | Hacker News Reader

Ode to libraries (the book ones)

sibervepunk.com

65 pointssiberpunk64 comments

In the US, libraries are free, have bathrooms, and you can spend the whole day. Hence, urban libraries have become de facto homeless shelters with all the social problems that implies. Suburban libraries are still pretty great places to work or read, but city libraries are a tragedy compared to what they were when I was growing up.

They definitely aren't as good as they could be, but I have always been able to get stuff done if I reserve a study room. Even suburban libraries are better like that

Not sure what city you're in, but this has not been my experience with several NYC libraries.

Ditto in central Chicago. Unless someone is simply opposed to seeing homeless people in their vicinity.

Seeing is fine. Smelling is usually much worse.

Sounds like they need rules that state you are only allowed in if you actually want to use the library for its intended purpose.

What do you think is the "intended purpose"? The fascinating and beautiful thing about the library systems in US is that there is no reason to have a purpose, you can literally just sit down and look outside the window. Breakneck-speed-modern-life needs this. I want a place to stop, think, read, write, listen... just somewhere to be human without fees for a second.

It sounds like you experienced this in some American city and generalized to all? This absolutely not true for Boston Public Library which is an immensely convenient place to WFH, read, or write. I also never experienced this in NYC public libraries, nor in the main Philadelphia library.

Imho public library systems in US cities are absolutely incredible, and arguably one of the best perks of living in the US period.

That's surely true, but maybe you're generalizing from a smaller sample than I am. For context, I've spent significant time (years) in Boston, NYC (Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn), LA (West Side and Downtown), and several smaller American cities in the American NE and SE using libraries. For comparison, I've also used the libraries in Paris, Rome, London, and other European cities extensively. I've used the iconic libraries and university libraries and they are great for sure, but branch libraries are a different matter entirely.

> So what to do? Go to nearest coffee shop. You’re lucky if they don’t play tasteless trendy music. You’re lucky if a waiter doesn’t keep asking if you need anything, isn’t intrusive, and doesn’t subtly let you know when it’s time to leave by checking on you constantly . You’re lucky if no teenagers talking loudly about their-whatever-teens-talk-about-these-days. Oh, by the way, pay a lot of money to be here and to drink a nice cup of burnt coffe.

You're right, but there are coffee shops that are actually friendly to work at. When I was living in Rome, I compiled for myself a maps list of work-friendly bars https://maps.app.goo.gl/8nZUdYEbs7H8MCDd7 - Now I moved to London and I'm doing the same

Absolutely, there are some coffee shops. Like you when I was in Istanbul, there were lots and lots of coffee shops, some of them even has two floors with top floor spared for working. Now I moved to a smaller city and I don't have these options anymore. That part was just my current experience. Also, thanks for sharing your list! I love spending time around the world in google maps, this will be my fun for today.

Would love to see your Lonon map / list!

let's make a collaborative list https://github.com/danielfalbo/awesome-london-laptop-cafes

> Now I moved to London and I'm doing the same

Could you share your map for London?

let's make a collaborative list https://github.com/danielfalbo/awesome-london-laptop-cafes

Astonishingly entitled. The point of a coffee shop isn't to provide you with a nice space to work but to sell coffee.

That doesn’t sound to me as entitled, more like acknowledging that they’re not the market most coffee shop owners are targeting. I’ve known a few places with target laptop workers but commercial real estate pricing in many markets is brutal in a way that libraries are less exposed to.

That would have been a very fair point but to me, the tone definitely comes off as "how dare these annoying waiters try to sell me coffee so that the shop doesn't lose money from me occupying a seat" and "how dare teenagers enjoy their time in a coffee shop, don't they know I have work to do?"

English isn’t my first language, so some sentences may have lost their nuance in translation. To me, that paragraph was more of a humorous, playful way of listing the aspects of working in a coffee shop that don’t suit me, rather than an angry, dissatisfied complaint.

That says a lot about you.

Pray tell, what does it say about me?

I read that as more of a tongue in cheek recognition that coffee shops need a certain revenue per seat per hour, which isn’t a fault as much as not being what a remote worker is looking for.

Fair point, but we can’t ignore the fact that many coffee shops provide desks with power outlets, and sometimes even dedicated workspaces, and that this has become a clear trend. These coffee shops also earn revenue from customers who want a workspace, and they incorporate this into their marketing. So, cafes don’t rely solely on coffee sales; the environment they provide contributes significantly to their income. Many people choose cafes as an alternative way to spend time outside. Therefore, some bussinesses aim to offer a workspace, some a social space, and some simply create an environment for spending time. And their offer just don't work for me. I'm not demanding anything from them; I just don’t use their business.

There’s one cafe in Austin, Texas that turns off the wifi at 5pm. They have beer on tap. The live music starts around 7.

Great way to support the co-working vibe without killing the vibe-vibe.

Something like 60% of a coffee shop Cost of Goods Sold is rent. You aren't really paying for coffee when you sit down with a cup.

I thought you were a bit harsh by calling it entitled, but then I saw “Then rent an office or subscribe to a co-working space? What? I get paid to work, not to pay for it.” Right afterwards, so I’m included to agree that there is definitely some kind of entitlement going on.

The irony is that even as this person complains about “paying to work”, libraries are often immensely expensive and he pays for that library with every paycheck and tax bill.

From this perspective, nothing we call ‘free’ is really free. Isn’t the purpose of taxes to receive some kind of service in return? I gladly use this service, and not having to spend part of my income for an office space (which I don't have to) doesn’t strike me as entitled. Maybe some thoughts are getting lost in conversation here.

Who is “he”? The author is a woman.

   Leaving your warm bed, rising before the sun in the morning (and I’m a morning person believe it or not), getting ready, commuting, traffic, thinking about what to eat in the office, commuting again, leaving you no time to live your life.

Indeed there is some entitlement in there.

But then again, I am thankful that the author has decided to share her thoughts on the subject. It's fascinating. The idea that waking up before dawn or commuting etc... is not living - well, what is it, then?

I belive it's fairly obvious that I mean life outside the work by "living your life". It's a pretty simple math that if you don't commute, spend time in traffic you have more time to do your stuff (whatever is your stuff). I still don't get how not liking traffic or liking decent amount of sleep is "entitlement"

The logic doesn’t follow. If you already pay for something with taxes, why would you want to pay for it again?

Maybe something like a toll road so you can get there faster; or another private service that is better than the public one.

By your logic we’d be entitled for wanting to drive on public roads for free.

<< The point of a coffee shop isn't to provide you with a nice space to work but to sell coffee.

Sure, but a coffee cup is not exactly expensive or difficult to make. The reason why companies tried so hard to make it inviting or 'third space' or whatever corporate types call it these days is that it helps sell severely overpriced sugar drinks of added caffeine.

This is not a shot at Starbucks. I love me some creme brulee, but it is important to recognize it for what it is.

Similarly, if it indeed is user entitlement that caused patrons to visit coffee shop and enjoy their drink in a nice space, then it was very much encouraged by corps for a good while ( for good reasons too -- apart from the historical ).

There’s a difference between providing a third space and providing a free office space for the cost of one coffrr

It is important to note that we are talking about extremes now. Up until now, the rules mostly encouraged self-governance and, in general, well, not being an asshole. That has been slowly eroded and we are in an expected spot, where some will push things to its limit.

While it is easy to be annoyed with those people, I would like to posit that they serve an actual purpose in the society. In a very tangible sense, they tell you where the lines actually are.

I disagree - I think those people are, to put it bluntly “the reason we can’t have nice things”. The only reason those lines need to be clearly defined is so those people know how hard they can push. If it wasn’t for that we could share.

I have chosen not to buy this coffee.

> Astonishingly entitled. The point of a coffee shop isn't to provide you with a nice space to work but to sell coffee.

How is this entitled? The author is just stating, accurately, that coffee shops are not conducive to working all day there. The author did not demand that coffee shops change to accommodate; to the contrary, the author simply chose a different venue.

I find libraries immensely soothing and am lucky enough to have several nearby to rotate through so I have also done this.

Combining a cycle to get there and coming back with a new book in my laptop bag is a good feeling.

Video calls are tricky, since you don't want to disturb others. Audio calls can be an excuse to take a walk outside in the sunlight. But I generally try to plan around calls and make the trip when I want to focus.

I'm also happy with just a laptop, which not all developers are.

I also quite like the background noise of students doing homework and old people getting taught how to use computers and the other human life going on quietly in the background. The occasional group of toddlers having a sing-song is a special treat.

On video calls, the library I go to is in some kind of cultural center & community space mix. So there are some common spaces that you can talk, and a cafetaria. These alone solve my problems for quick un-planned video calls. For daily meetings or planned pair programming sessions, I also wait for the meeting then head over to library.

I'm fully remote and finding places to get away resonates. I tried the library, but the artificial lighting, lack of infrastructure (especially large monitors) and maybe also the lack of a more social space where you are actually allowed to talk made it a less than ideal experience.

But I concur that libraries as places for people to meet and do some sort of intellectual goal-oriented activity (as opposed to bars and other places of entertainment) are a great idea. I like what cities like Helsinki have done with Oodi, a library that also offers workspaces for people to do all sorts of things.

I totally feel what you mean about design. The library I used back in university was really tasteless and carelessly designed (if we can even call it "designed"), and I wouldn’t have used it if I didn’t have to. This one, I got lucky.

I hope both the authorities and the public will continue, more and more, to do their best to make libraries more valuable and beautiful.

Libraries are truly something amazing. My local one offers an incredible amount of stuff, all for just 15€/year. They have their own streaming-service, you can lend e-books and magazines easily online, rent consoles/videogames, water, tea and coffee either free or just 1€, events to learn languages, hang out or just get together with the local community, book trades, the list goes on. More people should support their local libraries, they need/deserve it much more than so many other services.

Oh you have much more than we have.. I live in a relatively small city, so there are not many events or offerings, but I'd love to have a bigger community in there. Even hanging out with your people, sharing daily life is such a wholesome connection. I'm happy to see that there are people from all over the world who value libraries in different ways.

Libraries aren't free co-working spaces though.

This remote worker is fortunate that no-one else does this because it would rapidly worsen. And I'm sure there's more than a handful of remote workers in their area so it would quickly descend into slots and worsen the 'regular purpose' of the library.

Mentioned in the article, I'm not sure if libraries work the same way in everywhere. But this one has literally free co-working spaces that anyone, including remote workers, students, or readers could use. Also quoting from an aspiring-librarian: "It always makes me happy to see someone using their local library as the community space it was meant to be!" Probably different countries, cities or organizations have different uses for libraries.

quote from: https://inchwyrm.bearblog.dev/

Most libraries in most countries I've been to have community spaces intended for (among other things) study and work. Most have dozens of services completely unrelated to loaning out books.

Yes, another user in the comments mentioned that their library offers streaming services, rental video games and cheap/free snacks. Right when I was thinking I am lucky with mine :)

Oh man, I would've killed for snacks as a student...

That assertion is very location dependant.

It's certainly common across a lot of Australia, including libraries running dedicated facilities for co-working and makerspaces. As an example: https://www.slq.qld.gov.au/visit/spaces/edge/bookable-spaces.

Both state (https://precinctqld.com.au/) and local (https://businesshub.brisbane.qld.au/coworking) governments then also run free or heavily subsided workspaces if you need something less ephemeral too.

It's true of almost every public service that it wouldn't scale to handle everyone simultanously.

Suppose that literally everyone decided to check out books from the library: many libraries, especially smaller ones, would quickly become empty of books!

I work from home, and I could work at the library, but I prefer to work from home, because I prefer my home environment to the library environment. I did work from the library quite a bit when my internet was out for a week, and it was a great relief to have the library available. I don't think there's a danger of overcrowding, though, because there's nothing now stopping people from working at libraries, and it hasn't been a problem AFAICT.

The author is not revealing any hidden, top secret fact that nobody knew before.

One of my favorite libraries to work from was the Cudahy Library at the University of Loyola in Chicago. It's a stunning glass building looking out directly on Lake Michigan. I'm not sure if this is still the case, but it used to be that anyone who lived in the neighborhood could get a "community" library card without being a student.

https://chriswolak.com/2020/05/31/library-visit-loyola-unive...

Great write up and I share very similar ideas. But I wish there was something a little more than a library where people with similar interests can actually socialize and build a sense of community.

It’s called a Starbucks.

I need that too! Especially when working remotely, I don't have the office to see my co-workers to socialize. Or back when I was in college, I don't have my classmates to chat about stuff. I wish "clubs" or communities in that sense were more common outside of college

This was such a refreshing read, thank you for sharing. I really resonated with your reflections on remote work and how the lines between “home” and “work” blur so easily.

I’ve also been searching for an alternative work environment myself, something outside the usual cycle of home office and noisy coffee shops. Your perspective reminded me that libraries are not only underrated but also deeply valuable spaces for focus, creativity, and even joy.

I’m definitely inspired to give my local library a chance!

What I like most are that most libraries are lively without being distracting. There is some movement but it’s not excessive. I’ve found it a great place for focused study and deep reading.

Great read, it sums up the daily struggle I feel for working from home and how to mitigate its effects. I will surely try to visit more libraries from now on.

I used to work from coffee shops until I realized how annoying it is to have a café full of people working on their laptops. A once lively place that was supposed to be an escape to relax, meet friends or read a book has turned into a soulless office environment. I want to go to a café to escape work, not to be reminded of it by constant keyboard sounds or video calls.

> You’re lucky if a waiter doesn’t keep asking if you need anything, isn’t intrusive, and doesn’t subtly let you know when it’s time to leave by checking on you constantly .

> Oh, by the way, pay a lot of money to be here and to drink a nice cup of burnt coffe.

How entitled can you be to think that you can occupy a table for the whole day and expect to only buy one coffee?

> Then rent an office or subscribe to a co-working space? What? I get paid to work, not to pay for it.

Yes, that is exactly you are supposed to do. If you are working remotely and can´t afford a co-working space you are probably underpaid. Your salary should either include that expense or your employer should cover that for you.

> How entitled can you be to think that you can occupy a table for the whole day and expect to only buy one coffee?

The author does not think that, hence the use of the phrase "pay a lot of money".

Nowhere did the author demand that coffee shops change to accommodate the author.

The author describes, accurately, why coffee shops are not conducive to working there all day. How is that "entitled"?

> ..until I realized how annoying it is to have a café full of people working on their laptops

Again, some coffee shops just go for that market. They provide working spaces or floors etc. Their target is those customers who work there. This is not about your preference as a customer.

> How entitled can you be to think that you can occupy a table for the whole day and expect to only buy one coffee?

I'm not sure where this "whole day" come from. I never sit anywhere whole day, not in library, not in coffee shops. At most 2-3 hours at a coffee shop. Plus, I never said they need to provide me this kind of service. I have no demands. I clearly said, this kind of environment is not for me. I am not the target customer of those coffee shops, and I simply don't prefer them. I am listing the reasons why coffee shops does not work for me. Again, I am not telling I have those rights. I am exactly telling that not having the correct environment droves me away from coffee shops for work.

> Yes, that is exactly you are supposed to do. If you are working remotely and can´t afford a co-working space you are probably underpaid. Your salary should either include that expense or your employer should cover that for you.

Well, no? That's not what I am supposed to do. I am paid to work from home, not work from a co-working space. Spending my working hours outside of the home is my personal preference, not something that I need to get paid.

If only one could have Zoom calls in libraries

My local library has soundproof conference rooms (we made heavy use of them as high-school students when doing group study for exams), so in some libraries you can.

I believe most of them have common spaces or work-together-rooms. But again, every library has different use cases..

I'm a fan.

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