Testing the Raspberry Pi 500+'s new mechanical keyboard
jeffgeerling.com
jeffgeerling.com
But as it is, you have to love tinkering with Linux or reading things across forums, blog posts, GitHub issues, and Discord to get a given Radxa board going nicely. It can be done, but it still takes too much effort for many.
Also, if we're posting our wishlist - Preonic form factor.
I disagree. This is exactly the type of product they should be building: It’s fun. It’s self contained. It lights up and looks intriguing to young people. It has a great community. It has plenty of documentation. You can expand from it and tap into a big universe of Raspberry Pi projects. You can store it away when you or your kids are done with it. You can connect it to your TV easily.
This is perfect for everything the Raspberry Pi Foundation set out to do: Be an educational ecosystem that was easy to access.
So many people are confused by Raspberry Pi because they think it’s supposed to be the most powerful or most bang for your buck general compute machine out there. That’s not their goal or their market.
As you said, if someone wants a fast general purpose PC they shouldn’t even be looking at this. That’s not what it’s for.
I think what people really overlook is how much brand recognition and mindshare "Raspberry Pi" has from the earlier products. That carries a very long way, but if none of the new products are supposed to scratch that same market itch then there will eventually be a problem. It reminds me a bit of folks who felt Mozilla should only care about the overall mission for the web instead of making sure Firefox grows to continue supporting that mission. They couldn't rest on their laurels forever to only do the mission either, and are in a tough spot for it.
They’re doing perfectly fine in this area.
This product is an additional option that brings their product line to even more people. I don’t understand why it makes some people upset when they offer more options. They haven’t taken away anything from their core product line. This is a variant of it. It’s not for you, but it is prefer for many
I think the Pico 2 and maybe compute module variant (depending on sub-niche use case) are still competitively interesting in their own right, but feel the rest are largely help up by the brand name at this point and I wonder how much of the revenue those add up to (Pico in particular, since its market is in the cup of coffee range).
Of course the brand value will hold things for many years to come (how many have 3 pis in a drawer just because the new one comes out and folks still buy it on name before thinking if it's worth it?) so they've got plenty of time to strike gold again for now.
At this point, most "mainstream" Pis are being used with off-the-shelf software or at least an off-the-shelf OS with custom userland code, and the technical details of the Pi are black-boxed away. So any competitor just needs to get you to the same basic "here's a Linux distro with the common packages" to get to a basic product parity, and then can differentiate with more/better/cheaper. This is especially easy when you can target a vertical specifically, like the "router boards" that come with an OpenWRT package.
The Picos are being programmed at a low level. If you want to swap in a STM32 or CH32V, you're a lot more concerned about "are the reference docs available and accurate", "will there be a reference to my specific weirdnesses on Stack Overflow", and "do the dev tools actually work." From that perspective, the RP products are industry leading, at least to a "Nobody ever got fired for buying ~IBM~ RP2040" level.
Yet they’re still selling out quickly and it can still be hard to find the model you want without shopping different distributors.
I think people like you who comparison shop based on the specs in a table don’t realize you’re simply not the target market. The target market will take the better ecosystem, support, and documentation even if it comes with less performance.
The people who want the fastest SBC and don’t mind spending a day or week chasing the right kernel fork to solve their problem are not the target audience.
But the Pi was popular before that for fun things. It still compares well for fun things unless trying to do AI. For me, the Pi 5 isn't that interesting because I don't need the performance, and Pi 4 or Pi 3 will get the job done without the power hassle.
The differentiator for the Pi line was support for the capability at the price point, but the competition for the mainline Pis is no longer "random ARM boards with no driver updates", so no longer is that support actually the differentiator for the Pi either. With the lowest cost Pi 5 model, $50 gets you a bare 2GB RAM board with no power or storage and you're still left with the bespoke ARM OS images and binaries to deal with. For the price of higher end models you can just get a complete standard x86 PC which happens to run better. That latter bit about the spec sheet is a bonus, not the main change. I.e. the target market shifted from "hot damn, I can run Linux at such a low price and wattage point while not worrying about support???" to "I want to spend my weekend tinkering with a Pi". The Pico 2 remains decent for the general market though. At $5 it's a well supported MCU with decent kit and a USB interface if you need to have that on a computer.
It'll also be interesting to see how much education even remains the mission now that they've IPOd. E.g., the mission statement on the investor relations page is:
> Raspberry Pi’s mission is to put high-performance, low-cost, general-purpose computing platforms in the hands of enthusiasts and engineers all over the world.
At the end of the day though, we could talk for days about how it must be one way or the other, but the only way to see what will actually happen is to wait 5-10 years. That reminds me, there is a regular HN "predictions for the next decade" kind of thread every turn of the decade and we're closer the next one rather than the last one already!
It was kind of an accident that the Raspberry Pi also became the de facto standard single-board computer for hobby electronics projects.
Edit: reminds me of this, https://www.officestationery.co.uk/product/fuze-keyboard-wit...
I'm not sure that really matters. It's well known that most people are not "homo economicus" rational / optimizing agents seeking to min/max every purchase decision. A lot of other factors go into purchases, and name recognition, brand loyalty, and general goodwill count for a lot with most people. Of course there are eventual limits to that, and any brand can be displaced if they are too cavalier with regards to meeting consumer needs. But in this case, I strongly suspect the people that want a Raspberry Pi 500+ are the people that want a Raspberry Pi 500+ and that's the end of it. They're not going to buy the competing product because it's $20 cheaper.
Also, something Jeff has pointed out in his videos on many occasions, as I recall: don't underestimate the importance of the associated software (eg, a working, supported OS with usable drivers that work on the device) as well as the community (support forums, etc) and the overall ecosystem (supported / trusted add-ons, mods, etc). To a lot of people it's that stuff that keeps them coming back to the RPi brand.
Something a less technical parent can wire up in the family room from a trusted brand without having to do a ton of research for not only reputable brands but also vendors on amazon?
Educational mission aside this is a good alternative to a chromebook.
The negativity about a $200 Linux computer just baffles me. Nobody’s forcing it on you.
I was saying that this part of your previous comment:
> just powerful enough I wouldn’t worry about general tasks being frustrating.
is not true. From experience with pi 5. It was not powerful enough to avoid frustrating an 8-yo. Too many educational resources use the web, and modern browsers are what they are. Maybe this 500+, with an nvme drive, is better, but I wouldn't bet on it.
> how’s it stopping people who prefer the n100 route?
It isn't stopping anyone from anything. This was my advice in case you somehow acquire "a kid between 10-18ish". Don't use overpriced ultra-niche devices unless you have a very clear scenario.
The Pi x00s are targeted at a certain nostalgic parent demographic, but do not, in my limited experience, impress, excite, or interest actual kids. The magic in c64 or apple ii was not in its form factor.
> The negativity about a $200 Linux computer just baffles me. Nobody’s forcing it on you.
You were saying that it's not overpriced for what it is. I said that you can get more performant devices cheaper. That's not negativity, that's conversation. You can say you still like this device for other reasons. Or say "hmm, maybe". Or not say anything at all.
Also, I'm very positive on sub-200 Linux computers, and own many. Including multiple Pis (main series boards and 400 are gathering dust, Zeros are cool as an airplay receiver and laser cutter operator), and several n100 boxes.
They'll sell a lot more 500s, but are the profit margins on the 500+ really that great?
As you would have been told in the second paragraph had you actually read the article, this is not a replacement for the existing Pi 500, which costs about that much MSRP.
Is their strategy to branch out to more premium prices? Did they see enough uptake of the Pi 500 that they figured there's enough of a niche to want to pay $200 for a bit more?
It's just interesting to me that they started out making cheap little educational devices that were great for the price and now they're making $200 devices. I understand there's a profit-making side to Raspberry Pi now that they're not strictly just a charity, so this must be some long-term bet.
So I believe a lot of people simply misunderstand what the Raspberry Pi foundation is trying to do.
My first thought was that what you want for education is a best bang for your buck computer so that a student has an affordable option. In that sense the most competitive option would be the best choice.
But I’m probably missing some extra feature or idea that makes the pi a better option even if comparatively more expensive? What’s is it?
Back in the 90s, schools were filled with either IBM or Apple computers. Not because they were cheap, but because they were predictably compatible with the types of software that educators wanted to use in those environments. They could’ve bought cheaper clones.
Pretty much any computer that runs windows or a Linux distro will have access to equivalent tooling, wouldn’t it?
https://www.raspberrypi.org/about/
https://www.raspberrypi.org/research-impact/
https://www.raspberrypi.org/teach/
https://www.raspberrypi.org/learn/
It wasn't until later that hobbyists and commercial interests also started using Raspberry Pis for things outside of the classroom. But that's where they came from.
The foundation still owns part of the quoted company and retains its educational purpose but it doesn't make the computers now.
It never did. The structure hasn't changed meaningfully recently, apart from the massive windfall of floating the commercial arm.
The foundation's purpose hasn't changed, its just now a fucktonne richer.
But the thing I'm not quite sure about is why that matters, virtually every other player, apart from adafruit is a corporation all about shareholder value.
Not true that nothing has changed though. Commercial arm has to answer to outside shareholders now which wasn't the case before.
Well it wouldn't have GPIO and really well written docs on how to use those GPIO.
You have to remember how hard (and expensive) embedded linux was until raspberry pi came along. Sure you had gumstix and BeagleBoard, but they were >$300 and needed a fuckton of work to get going. Even more so before you could deploy anything workable to it.
Lattepanda is a thing now & no one is forcing you to buy an Rpi.
How many $200 all in one machines have a fully hackable RGB keyboard with public firmware and docs to make your own firmware, plus a SBC to do basic computer thing?
if thats expensive, then perhaps just buy the 500, it half the price.
obviously QMK exists https://www.keychron.uk/products/keychron-q6-he-qmk-wireless... but that doesn't come with a SBC
If I want a home server, then sure its no the right product.
If I want to give a machine that a child can tinker with, and has lots of support /docs on how to do cool shit with it, then this is probably one way.
If thats too expensive, then the plain 500, for half the price.
The mini PCs sold everywhere these days use standard Linux with over the counter components by Intel and AMD that are documented to death. They have the memory, faster CPU, fast storage, multiple HDMI outs, power switches etc. They run Windows if that's your thing. You can actually use them as your main computer if you are a teenager or light user.
This is far from the British computers that theoretically inspired the foundation. Even the cheaper 500 isn't such a great value for real world computer education. I bet more adult hobbyists like me use them than actual children.
can you show me the GPIO library and documentation for a beelink n100?
where are the i2c pins on the motherboard, do they come with headers, or do we need to solder them in?
> Even the cheaper 500 isn't such a great value, unlike for instance, the foundation's (and mine) beloved ZX Spectrum.
the non plus 500 is £84. The Zxspectrum would be £500 adjusted for inflation.
a decent n100 (ie one that isn't a gamble) is £250, and again is for a different purpose.
People like to criticise x64 but getting a thin client from ebay and ESP32 GPIO board is probably the best bang for your buck.
No one buys raspberry pi to save money anymore, you buy it because you want to use Arm architecture and ability to use Android builds like LineageOS.
I really hope the pi foundation gets their head out of their behinds and stars competing again.
teoretical performance, yes
practicality, no
availability, no
community, no
manufacturer support, no
expandability, no
etc etc
Raspberry Pi has built the best brand in this space.
It's possible to score a name-brand, refurbished "thin client" PC for around Raspberry Pi 3 dollars. I scored an HP one for $25, and it fits nicely in the "small fanless PC" niche, runs Linux, and is faster than the corresponding Pi would be.
the attitude that stuff from brands you don't recognize from Shenzhen are "flea market dreck" is exactly why Chinese brands like DVI are winning
- Wires I bought for breadboard prototyping turned out to not be made of copper after I noticed them sticking to a magnet on my workbench.
- A power supply module I purchased appeared to be using counterfeit chips. The switching frequency didn’t match the TI data sheet for the markings on the chip.
- I wasted several days trying to get an sdcard module to work. I gave up and ordered from adafruit instead and those worked on the first try.
Not to mention the well documented problems with counterfeit sdcards, etc.
With mini PCs, there are a million different ways bargain brands can cut corners that won’t show up immediately.
as far as I know you can't be a racist against SoC
Amazon doesn't show you the race of the product owner (and typing this I realise how fucking stupid that sounds)
However Amazon also doesn't care about what shit it sells you, so its perfectly possible to be scammed by some shady org out for a quick buck.
Even if you spend the time to research the right brand, Amazon doesn't actually guarantee that it'll sell you that brand, through a lot of weird bate and switch and "other sellers also offer", and just plain deceit, its not that hard to end up with expensive shite.
I have a bunch of n100s for both home and work. currently we have a 1/4 failure rate (combo and beelink and trigkey green, and others)
I still have all my Pis working, apart from the ones that got wet. (however, thats SD card dependent. Thats at least cheaper.)
> the attitude that stuff from brands you don't recognize from Shenzhen
Its not Shenzhen thats the problem, its Amazon/marketplace trying to make a fast one palming off shite as gold.
I think you might be missing the point. If you’re looking for the cheapest, most cost-effective computer, and you’re willing to shop for it on Amazon, then I know you’re missing the point.
Old Cherry keywitches in Wyse Terminals and computers were the best keyboards ever. They had a great feel with barely there faint click. Totally nothing like the CLONK CLICK that people think made those early IBM keyboards popular. I always hated them. If you're copying a keyboard an old Wyse keyboard from say a WY50 terminal or Wyse386 PC clone and copy that.
So obnoxious.
Unfortunately, the three displays which the rPi foundation don't have matching proportions.
Has anyone put together a parts list which would work for this?
Kind of thinking I'd want something like a Radio Shack Model 100....
- a screen sized and proportioned to look good with the rPi 500+ which can be powered by it
- a(n optional) battery pack
- a case (or an STL for 3D printing?) which all the parts would snap into to make a laptop
For bonus points, the screen could have touch (and perhaps stylus?) input.
I'm currently waiting on a Soulcircuit Pilet from the Kickstarter (2 actually), but may have to give this a swing at some point.....
1. Display a progress bar for the memory limit being reached
2. Feed that progress back to the model
I would be so curious to watch it up to the kill cycle, see what happens, and the display would add tension.
It’s a really neat idea, don’t get me wrong, I’m just not sure how much serious typing I’d really be able to do on it.
The amount of waste that happens constantly is mind-boggling.
To be clear I think the price of the pi 500+ is pretty much fine for what it is, I was just curious.