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Comment by waysa | Hacker News Reader

This is especially valuable for friends who struggle with depression. They almost never feel like going out because depression sucks out all their energy. But they'll appreciate the invite and that they're not forgotten. It's harder this way for them to isolate and go deeper down the spiral.

One rule that helped me fight my depression was to accept invites no matter what. Go to the loud bar I don't like? I'm in. Cake decorating workshop with annoyingly cheerful Jennifer? Sign me up. Join Joel for his 5am workout? I'm not sleeping anyway.

You get the idea. But it can only work when others take the initiative.

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I think one of the most important lessons in life (even as a healthy person) is realizing “motivation and action are cyclically causal”

Of course “action follows motivation” but even when not motivated “motivation follows action”.

For example, even as a healthy person I am not always motivated to go to the gym after a busy day at work which I am “so tired from”. I go dispite the lack of motivation. Unsurprisingly, I walk out of the gym feeling re-motivated and “with more energy”.

I like how my friend phrased it:

You can create energy through effort.

There are different types of depression, and going to a party when you're depressed can definitely exacerbate the depression.

It sucks being alone at home. It sucks more to be alone in a party.

You can take advantage of this phenomenon to snowball small actions into bigger ones, too. To get into the habit of working out, I started going to the gym everyday. I didn't work out everyday, but the act of going out of my way to be at the gym lent me the motivation to actually work out more often than not.

Facts!

I now get to the gym (or some form of exercise) 6 days a week. That was entirely because I made the decision to go to the gym and watch some YouTube.

Then I’d end up staying 90 mins but I’d get my 50 min workout in with a lot of long breaks! Then things started becoming a habit but I still have many days where I just watch YouTube at the gym lol

Acting with neither intrinsic nor extrinsic motivation is technically impossible, no? Otherwise, i wonder how this mysterious third force compelling you into a gym absent motivation relates to your personal psychology / environment, and how executive dysfunction (both genetic, and technology-induced) fits into the picture.

Excellent point. As somebody with experience of major depression, even when you don't get taken up on your offer, always make sure people have an alternative to suicide. Put something in their calendar, even if you're sure they won't show up.

This is one main reason loneliness is a silent killer: nothing gets put into the calendar.

I have a counter-anecdote.

In order to get over my social anxiety I did the same. First year of college, I'm in to every event, hangout and gathering. I made many close friends, connections, memories.

Yet after any significant social interaction I was somehow, inexplicably, almost mysteriously, extremely exhausted. A lunch with few close friends would have me resting on the couch for a few hours afterwards. A meetup with more people would incapacitate me for the weekend. There was no alcohol or anything, the exhaustion wasn't physical but mental.

I kept at it for a year but the anxiety never eased off like so many "Get out of your room, touch grass, socialize" people claim. By the second year I was literally dreading getting out of my dorm room to get groceries for the off chance I'd meet a friend in the building. Meanwhile everybody loved me and were very friendly to me, but for some reason I was feeling like secretly everybody doesn't like me. I had negative amounts of self confidence and had constant people-pleasing behavior.

My friends kept inviting me because I was showing up to every event.

It turns out I had undiagnosed autism and ADHD. I was masking all this time[1]. The reason I felt why everybody doesn't like me was because I didn't like my friends, but never deemed my emotions important enough to even realize that.

After I realized this I let go of %99 of my "friendship"s and I'm much, much happier, content and stress-free than ever before. The comfortable level of socialization for me is maybe an outdoor activity with a close friend once a month.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autistic_masking

Wow, I really relate to this. It got to the point where I was reading self-help about social skills and such, and tried to follow the "always say yes" like you did and "never eat alone" type fluff advice. People had lots of good things to say about me, and I even tried doing things like writing those things down in a gratitude journal or taking screenshots of the texts, etc, to help shift my mindset (unsuccessfully). I still have the low self-confidence and people-pleasing you talk about to this day.

To your last point, I'm feeling much better when not pushing myself so hard to be social but the question I'm grappling with now is somewhat selfish but about how to make sure I have support? E.g. I had a friend who just went through a cancer diagnosis and a lot of us friends and his community rallied for him. It also made me wonder about what happens if I get very sick, or lose my job and don't have a professional network to reach out to or personal/friendship support, or just if my car breaks down at 1am or something, or just being very lonely without real close friends.

How are you reconciling this sort of thing in your own life?

To be honest, I don't have a good answer.

Indeed, I don't have the friend network since I stopped forcing myself to be social. Most people don't call again if you don't answer their calls for a few months [1].

I too witnessed people calling their friends for help in hard situations (like car broke down at 1am) and wondered who I could call if that happened to me.

I have a family and extended family who are very supportive. That is my social safety net, and they would help in any serious issue like money, car broke down at 1am, etc. This is a part of our culture where I live (It's not the US.) If you don't have that, it gets trickier.

For example, if you live in a different city than your family (which is a historically new phenomenon) you can't rely on them for car breakdown at 1 am situation.

Setting aside family, I think, for life-and-death issues (e.g. cancer) even people who know you at a superficial level (e.g. classmates, colleagues) would be willing to help, at least where I live.

For middle sized issues (car breakdown at 1am) I could call exactly 1 friend in my hometown, and 1 another in the city I study. They are close friends who like me as the person I am. They are content with our low-effort low-contact friendship. If you want advice, I think if you meet enough people (that's the hard part ofc) you'll eventually find one of these. Funnily one of these friends is extremely social, the sort of person you'd expect to greatly succeed in politics.

For smaller matters (e.g. an assignment in college) I have to admit I refrained from asking people for most anything ever since I stopped being forcibly social. This did lead to some (small) losses over time.

I live by the principle of "never ask any more than you gave to a person". Though it's not uncommon to see NT people who barely know each other confidently ask for small favors, offering nothing in return, simply because they don't have the social anxiety that I do.

1: I know it's rude. But iykyk the anxiety.

I also feel similarly about owing people things. I think it does tend to bind people together to have a history of giving to each other and receiving but like you mention, it can be anxiety-inducing as well.

Thanks for the advice, I know there's not really a "perfect" solution, I was just curious about how you've approached it in your own life so I appreciate you sharing.

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