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Comment by Throwaway123129 | Hacker News Reader

This is not a Linux issue (Though the hibernate issues are!). It's a PC issue. Microsoft went on a crusade making hardware vendors implement S0 next to S3 but most hardware vendors now _only_ implement S0. So that the laptop can keep phoning home and download updates etc whilst closed. Which means it's impossible to turn off the CPU during suspend. it's always on.

PC as a laptop platform is a complete joke.

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Shouldn't that mean that the relatively open platforms like Framework should work better, since they lack the incentive to defy the user/owner like the locked-down platforms do? What would prevent Framework or anything similar from implementing the other sleep states?

Framework doesn't produce it's own CPUs. It buys them directly from Intel. Producing your own CPU is really difficult, if you want it to be competitive with other state-of-the-art CPUs.

They don't need to make their own CPUs for that. Framework can write its own BIOS and ACPI drivers for Windows and Linux to have proper sleep support. But that's more R&D expenditure they probably can't afford.

For example, for my home lab, I bought a used Intel 12th gen industrial PC from a specialized Taiwanese embedded systems company, whose BIOS allows very granular control of all sleep states plus individual power control of most peripherals, probably because that's a must-have for customers in that space over stuff like benchmark scores and bang for the buck.

So technically, IT IS possible to do, just probably not very cost effective for consumer devices.

Do those settings actually work? My HP laptop with a 10th gen intel has an option for this. Windows manages to suspend, but it doesn't come back to life. Linux is broken, too.

I think it's worse than that, at least for the AMD-based Frameworks. Ostensibly, S3 sleep isn't supported by the CPU.

https://community.frame.work/t/responded-how-to-enable-s3-sl...

Framework outsources their BIOS to Insyde who are a terrible OEM.

https://novacustom.com is a manufacturer that does do their own firmware and BIOS and gives you full control over all these settings

As I remember, sleep state are mostly implemented by the CPU (or require the CPU collaboration), and neither intel nor AMD does s3 sleep on their proc anymore.

>So that the laptop can keep phoning home and download updates etc whilst closed.

On Windows, network connectivity in S0 standby is optional: https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/146593-enable-disable-ne...

>Which means it's impossible to turn off the CPU during suspend. it's always on.

Hibernation is still an option, if you don't mind a slower resume.

With 32 GiB of memory it's just too slow. A laptop, to me, is supposed to be a device much like a phone in that I can just flip it open and do what I need to do, suspend is supposed to be that, but if I don't charge my Dell precision every single day it'll just run down to 0 for absolutely no reason.

I need high ram laptop for work. It it way too expensive and slow to hibernate 128gigs laptop every few hours

Ok but windows has better battery life.

S0 is a step forward. Disabling CPU entirely is just a "workaround". Both S3 and hibernation has a lot of security implications which S0 solves. Apple uses their own S0 alternative and it works... Perfectly?

The real problem is that both AMD and Intel S0 implementations are mediocre at best and this is what they should fix. Also most vendors are dickheads and cannot even verify that their system even goes to S0ix states without any problem before releasing it. Because of their laziness you can buy brand new certified "Linux ready" machine which won't even achieve S0ix states out of the box.

In other words, for the user, it's not a step forward. It doesn't matter if the spec is perfect.

Wasn't Apple the one to start with this? And it seems to work well there...?

Wouldn't that mean that Intel Macs would have a much worse battery life than they did while suspended? Even suspended they did better than the same laptop running Linux.

Intel Macs aren't PCs... Apple did a lot of the wider platform beyond the CPU themselves.

They are still Personal Computer unless you work for marketing.

Microsoft is not to blame for Linux’s abysmal battery lift. Linux has never ever had good battery life. It’s the only issue preventing me from replacing my MacBook.

So this is why my parents laptop is constantly running it's fans while 'asleep'?

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