Comment by 999900000999 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by 999900000999 | Hacker News Reader

I want to love framework, and I really do want to get behind their mission, but a few things stand out.

First and this is the elephant in the room, it's probably better for the environment to buy a refurbished think pad. The most environmentally friendly product is one that gets reused instead of going to a landfill.

The 13-in framework only offers one SSD slot, The expansion Bay offers a nice storage option but these are a bit overpriced and then you're down to three ports. The design itself feels really prone to failure, if you're popping in and out expansion cards all the time eventually the ports are going to fail which seems like a really weird design choice. It probably would have been smarter to do something that requires actually screwing in components.

To get comparable specs, you seriously need to spend about 50% more on average, and this is just me comparing ThinkPads to Frameworks. If I wanted to look at laptops on sale you can easily find framework specs at half price.

Finally the support issues don't really inspire confidence, if my Lenovo laptop has issues I can walk into a variety of authorized repair centers and just let them sort it out. Framework simply doesn't have this, I don't have the appetite to pay a premium price and not have this as an option.

Extended warranty options are iffy. You have to first pay more for the prebuilt laptop, and then at the performance tier ( Amd 350) you have to drop $1,690 to get a 3 year warranty. It's out of stock anyway.

The Lenovo E14 Gen 7 with a Intel® Core™ Ultra 7 255H Processor is about 1030$ direct from Lenovo with a 3 year warranty (2 years is available, and is my risk tolerance sweet spot, so I can save 60$ there).

The only reason I'm looking at the E14 is I REALLY want two SSD drives. If I'm ok with just one I can buy a refurbished P14 for around 780$.

I think the core issue is Framework is still a boutique brand, if they ever reach the size of a major OEM then they're pricing will be more competitive.

> if you're popping in and out expansion cards all the time eventually the ports are going to fail

If you're plugging and unplugging USB-C cables all the time, eventually the ports are going to fail, but we generally consider plugging things into USB-C acceptable.

The Framework expansion modules are just USB-C ports, but they're not subject to much twisting or bending when using the modules so they should last longer.

Even if the internal USB-C ports which the expansion cards plug into fail, which to me also seems like a long time away, the mainboard is designed to be replaceable so I think you'd be in a better position than with another laptop with a failed power plug.

There are also clips that hold the expansion cards in place. My HDMI one started coming out when I unplug the cable even from really early on, even without pressing the button which should be required to remove the card. That is another way they could fail - in getting loose enough that they weren't securely held in place to be useable. The internal USB-C port would still apply some force in holding them in place though. In my case, this is not related to the socket, but to the card. I'll need to open it up and take a closer look, but hopefully they're designed so the cards fail long before whatever is in the chassis which holds them in. Plastic on the cards vs metal on the chassis would seem robust to me. Otherwise, if the mechanism fails on the chassis side, that would be a much bigger replacement.

Disclosure: I was a big supporter of Framework and bought an early 13 inch (11th gen Intel). I would no longer recommend them due to the mounting list of problems I've had, and despite their responses always being friendly and prompt, they are unable to send any replacement parts, because I've moved to a non-supported country and there is no way they can send anything to the maritime capital of the world. I try to be neutral in my comments, but sarcasm creeps into my disclosures.

Your last paragraph is exactly why I'm avoiding the brand.

It's a premium product with subpar service.

You have Framework the ideal. Right to repair , replaceable parts, ownership rights.

Vs

Framework the company, weird QC issues, parts out of stock, iffy supply. Prices so high you might as well just buy a better laptop whenever you'd swap the main board out.

I think I'm just going with a Thinkpad for my next computer. I also prefer the all black look.

> there is no way they can send anything to the maritime capital of the world

That just blows my mind. Not shipping to one of the richest and tech savvy countries in the world which happens to be less than 5 hours away from Framework's assembly base Taiwan.

> if you're popping in and out expansion cards all the time eventually the ports are going to fail which seems like a really weird design choice

Anecdotally, I've developed a bad habit of fidgeting with my expansion cards by popping them in and out. I've probably put them through several hundred cycles like that and they still work fine - I think the fact that the cards are "rail-roaded" into the slots helps a lot, since it makes it very difficult to apply pressure at an angle to the internal USB-C port.

I spent a ton of time researching this. I wasn’t able to find any thinkpads that are relatively lightweight, have a hi res screen, and new CPUs for even close to the price of the framework 13 which can be purchased with a reasonable spec for less than $1100.

It’s entirely possible that I missed one. But honestly that also makes me root more for framework - just sell me one high quality product instead of offering 40 models, some of which are shit, half of which are so niche they don’t even get a proper review anywhere.

The ThinkPad E14 he mentioned is available with a 120Hz 2880x1800 display.

I think it wasn’t out 5 months ago when I looked. But that honestly looks like a great option now

In order:

Nothing is stopping you from buying a used Framework. Admittedly, the market is much smaller than for refurbished Thinkpads, but it's smaller on both sides (demand and supply), I found several both on Frameworks own community marketplace and on ebay. And considering the fact that after you buy the first one, you will re-use the chassis and other, non-mainboard components across at least a few upgrades, I actually still think that a framework is the correct "environmental" decision. Plus, if I were to buy a used/refurbed Framework, I would be _supremely_ confident that if some sub-component of it came broken (or broke shortly after purchase), that I would be able to get the laptop as a whole up and running and not need to ewaste the whole thing.

Price-to-performance. This is true....the first time you buy the laptop. On subsquent upgrades, you are not paying the full price of the laptop, but only the mainaboard. Over a few upgrade cycles, the framework comes down _significantly_ in price. This is, in fact, close to the entire point of framework.

I can't speak to support. I have had no issues with my 16. I've heard stories in both directions (very good and very bad support). I guess I will say that it is reasonable to be more skeptical about the level of support one will receive from a new company wit a very small team.

The mainboard cost as much as a new laptop.

https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-ai300?v=FRANTE0009

AMD Ryzen™ AI 300 Series - Ryzen™ AI 9 HX 370

1000$

https://www.newegg.com/asus-vivobook-s14-14-0-non-touch-scre...

ASUS Vivobook S14 Laptop, Copilot+ PC AMD Ryzen AI 9 HX 370 32GB RAM 1TB SSD

1000$.

The pricing just isn't competitive imo. Plus PC laptops go on sale pretty often.

Except for Framework.

The issue IMO is a lack of scale. If Dell did this they could probably offer cheaper parts.

Plus the warranty options drive the price up, I can add a 200$ warranty on the above Asus and get 3 years.

1200$ vs 2000$ on the Amd 370 framework.

That said, I want Framework to succeed. It's good for the industry. It doesn't mean I'm personally ready to make the investment.

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