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In America, you fail the second you apologize or take accountability. Ignoring criticism and deflecting all the time gets you further, as it is part of the game. Unfortunately, this is just an accepted social science-y thing at this point. It is a very much cultural thing of the past couple of decades.

Isn't the case in engineering cultures, like Boeing before they changed into a business culture.

Is there any engineering culture left in the US?

I feel like this is the case across the board.

Yes, there is. In every place that I've worked, including my current position, acknowledging when you're wrong or have failed at something increases trust in you and your professionalism.

People who always have an excuse, try to shift blame, etc., are assumed to be lacking in competency (let alone ethics and trustworthiness).

My point is less around how engineers behave, and more around how organisations behave.

If an organisation is constantly retrenching experienced staff and cutting corners to increase earnings rather than being driven by engineering first, it doesn't matter what the engineers do amongst themselves. This culture, in fact, rewards engineers doing a bad job.

Not all organizations behave that way, though. If you reword my comment to indicate the company attitudes themselves, it still largely holds true.

I confess to a selection bias, because I won't work at a company that doesn't behave that way. Life is too short for that BS. However, that I maintain employment at the expected pay rates while doing so indicates that there are a lot of companies who don't behave the way you describe.

All that said, I certainly don't deny that there are also a lot of companies who do behave as you describe.

The differentiator is market value.

Any company that does engineering "well" likely has slower growth and a smaller PE multiple.

Consequently, you don't hear about it nearly as much as the splashy, full-financial-speed-ahead companies.

Tl;dr - don't buy products or services from companies with high valuation stock prices... they're making that profit somewhere

The point is not to have an excuse or shift blame, but just talk over the issue "tired of talking about $thing", and shift the conversation.

"Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein?”

Tesla doesn't cultivate an engineering culture. Tesla encourages a culture of lying. Some engineers have become so corrupted by it that they're willing to lie about things that there's no need to lie about, like quarter mile times of the Cybertruck:

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/tesla-cybertruck-beast-vs...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J3H8--CQRE

The lead engineer on the Cybertruck sadly tried to defend the lie:

https://x.com/wmorrill3/status/1746266437088645551

They never even ran that quarter mile.

Do you have sources?

That's a interesting take. What I have heard from a very old friend of my father is the opposite:

> Knowing when to say thanks and when to say sorry is the key for success.

...and I have used this piece of advice since then, it paid me handsomely. Of course, this doesn't allow you to be shameless, on the contrary, it requires to stick to your values as a prerequisite.

I think what allows Elon to behave like that is how he can retaliate without any repercussions since he has tons of money and influence in some circles.

Machiavellian

Then we need to change that. Those with power are best-equipped to effect that change.

I think the problem is many of our senior leaders are just not that good, and the best they can do is model themselves on who they think is successful, like Musk. Then we get a predetermined outcome that repeats. Remember when every senior leader concluded that "Steve Jobs treated people like shit, but was very successful; therefore the path to success is treat people like garbage."? This was a global phenomenon for years. The "admitted failure is weakness" believe is much stronger.

This is far from universal in the US, but it's certainly true in certain circles.

It's too bad, because "I'm sorry; this is my fault" is the biggest diffuser of anger and best way to appease mad customers. Try it sometime; the other party goes from ready to kill you to apologetic themselves (if you're genuine). Unfortunately it's seen as a sign of weakness by people like Elon and his cult of impersonators and an admission of liability by the litigious crowd. If you can be strong, confident and ready to admit it when you're wrong you'll not only be successful in confrontational situations but also not a giant dick.

The Japanese seem to have this in their DNA.

We once had a customer on a project that we'd messed up. I told the customer I was sorry about that and that I'd make an effort to fix the problem. I could see they were happy to hear that. But afterwards my manager called me at home and got mad I'd said sorry to them. His philosophy was never to apologize. Funny thing, later on that customer offered me a better paid position...

In America, you actually don't fail when you're wealthy.

My biggest criticism of Elon is that he supports neo-nazis

And advocates "remigration" and other white nationalist slime on social media.

> One of my biggest criticisms of Elon is that he rarely takes accountability for his words and nobody ever holds him accountable by asking directly. This isn't a high bar to clear, but some people continuously excuse him as being "overly-eager" in his predictions.

I've written off pretty much everything he says since sometime before 2020, too many lies about self-driving to count.

But I'm not someone with any influence (nor do I really want that kind of attention).

> One of my biggest criticisms of Elon is that he rarely takes accountability for his words and nobody ever holds him accountable by asking directly.

On one hand, I agree with you that this is maddening.

On the other hand this is, as the kids would say, "the meta" in 202X for business and politics.

Lying at scale and never taking responsibility for anything obviously works exceptionally well, and not just for Elon. I wish it didn't, but it does.

> when you realize that your predictions are going to be wrong, you should have the basic decency to update people

Not to get too political, but the last I've heard of Elon Musk is that he was speaking to/mobilizing right wing extremists at a big protest in London. I am also pretty sure he has been trying to do similar things in other European nations (for whatever reason).

It seems to me that it is a bit late to plead for "basic decency" at this moment.

But at the same time let me ask you, what has he got to lose? What financial or reputational risk is he taking by not taking any accountability?

Society needa a "no assholes" policy in order to syay high trust. Elon not being a pariah because of his grifting is a sign the US is becoming a lower and lower trust society. And its billioniares making it so

This would fly in the face of the smoke and mirrors that props up his meme stock.

He lies relentlessly even to customers who paid for the product.

I know because I’m one of them. FSD paid in full almost seven years ago, still does absolutely nothing in Europe. A five-year-old would do a better job at driving because the Tesla can’t even see speed limit signs correctly.

Tesla takes no responsibility for their misleading marketing and years of lies. Most recently Musk promised in early 2025 that these old cars would get a hardware update that will finally enable the paid-for FSD (as if…) The company itself pretends to know nothing about this latest promise made by its CEO.

It’s insane that a business with a trillion-dollar market cap operates like this. It seems to be more of a cult than a real company.

> because the Tesla can’t even see speed limit signs correctly.

This is sad and atrocious. Not only a Ford Puma (an econobox compared to a Tesla) can read almost all speed limit signs correctly, it can pull speed limit data correctly from its onboard maps when there are no signs. These maps can be updated via WiFi or an on board modem too.

Tesla mocked "big auto industry", but that elephant proved that it can run if it needs to.

I think Elon would say that this is a regulatory problem because you guys don't have the same signs or distance units as in the US.

So why take money for it? And computer vision is well past the stage where the information can be read from these signs, theres enough training data. So thats not a real hurdle. If different road geometry or traffic customs/rules is the issue then just admit that FSD cant generalize like a human and is overfit to the us. Why lie and pretend its almost human level?

I was being a bit factious (related to Elon's previous bullshit claims that it was only a regulatory issue that everybody's Tesla can't moonlight as a robotaxi by the end of some year in the past...sure Elon).

It is purely a regulatory problem. FSD is not available in Europe due to the slow pace of regulatory approval.

For instance UNECE regulation 79 prevents FSD from using its full capacity to turn the steering wheel.

It's a rat's nest of red tape.

How do EU regulations prevent my car from recognizing speed limit signs?

The real problem is that Tesla sold this in Europe, but never put the slightest effort towards actually developing the localized ML model that could make it work. (Of course the hardware sucks too, but they could have done a much better job with it.)

The reason is because mobileye patented (US20080137908A1) it and won't let tesla use it.

If that's the case, why didn't Tesla just issue refunds to us customers in Europe?

If it's really due to a patent, that just makes it worse. Tesla has known all along that they can't deliver the product they sold.

The cars drive themselves incredibly well in US, Canada, China, and Australia The iEU is blocking deployment to protect their own automotive industry. Reading speed signs is not necessary for the system to function. In Canada my car drives the speed of traffic just fine. If you live in Europe regulatory sludge has robbed you of FSD not Tesla.

The article pretty much contradicts this - the cars don't drive themselves exceptionally well, unless you're constantly monitoring them. This is expected considering the actual capabilities of Tesla's 'FSD,' but it falls short of the promised performance.

I'm very happy with the performance. I use FSD everyday. It is very very good. I only intervene when I want to. In my last generation hardware, that runs on a 144 TOPS computer, it will very occasionally (twice in the last 4 months) do something like start moving a few seconds before a red light turns green. These critical interventions happened all the time a couple of years ago, but since the introduction of V12 software have been all but eliminated.

FSD is literally improving exponentially, looking at it in Europe (where it is blocked by regulators with economic incentives to delay Tesla's progress) is like looking at a fully fueled rocket ship at ignition and complaining that it is not moving.

Go take a ride in a new Model Y with hardware 4 and V13 software in North America and you'll realize how the EU regulators are screwing over European customers.

And why does this only affect tesla?

>> same signs or distance units

yeah, how could we expect software developers to write code that can replaces "z" with "s", handle extra "u"s and divide numbers by 1.6? </s>

Why did you buy FSD if you are in Europe?

Why did Tesla sell a 7,500 euro feature in Europe if they knew it’s never going to work?

My mistake was assuming this company had the slightest decency to sell things they could actually deliver.

I will never understand why people ask why those who bought a thing expected to get that thing

Isn't that the bare minimum requirement for how commerce is supposed to function?

A surprising chunk of HN commenters earnestly believe that "caveat emptor" should be some kind of horrible default way of life. Like businesses should be able to sell anything they want, without regulation, as long as they can convince people to buy those things. And if those things don't work--well it's 100% the customer's fault for being so gullible and not being responsible for the company's quality.

I don't understand why people would want to live that way and argue against those who fight for better.

But my guess is that it's a defense mechanism, essentially the Just World fallacy. "It would really suck to have that bad thing happen to me through no fault of my own. *spoink!* I'm careful (and smart) therefore bad things won't happen to me" (https://dilbert-viewer.herokuapp.com/1999-09-08)

Interestingly with SpaceX he is much more willing to change plans. With SpaceX he and SpaceX seem to be searching for the right solution.

For self driving, he simply decided X is right and talked about exponentials and no matter how many time it fails, there is no reflection what so ever.

He's a psychopath, in the sense he doesn't feel normal emotions like remorse and empathy. He will lie to your face to get you to buy his product and when it fails to deliver on promises he will lie again.