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Comment by rgovostes | Hacker News Reader

> Uber driver Juan Prado made six figures in 2021, often shuttling passengers in town for job interviews and doing frequent drop-offs near downtown tech offices. Now, he said, demand is much lower. “There are moments where you can be online, and in certain areas, it shows nothing.”

"Seattle has the nation’s most expensive Uber rides" (Seattle Times). Rides to the airport have increased 50% for me in the past year, to about $75, and it's at best twice as fast as the $3 train. I doubt it's just fewer tech jobs suppressing Uber activity since 2021.

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Seattle levied taxes and fees on Uber and deliveries that are so high that it is comical. You literally will pay more in taxes and fees to the city than you’d ordinarily pay for the goods and services you are actually consuming. Like, up to 100% effective tax rates on consumption. Unsurprisingly, people noped out and now there is a new crisis because people that provided those services are underemployed or unemployed.

The politicians begrudgingly acknowledge the massive drop in business but simultaneously assert they can’t change anything because “it was the right thing to do”. Meanwhile, the people that worked in those businesses aren’t getting paid. Seattle has the highest minimum wage in the country, almost $21/hr before tips, but that is a cold comfort if there isn’t enough business to give you hours.

Seattle is not run by serious people.

> politicians begrudgingly acknowledge the massive drop in business but simultaneously assert they can’t change anything because “it was the right thing to do”

What was the rationale?

"Big business bad; don't pay enough tax."

I believe they were trying to raise minimum wage for gig workers (see Seattle "PayUp" law)

> Seattle levied taxes and fees on Uber and deliveries that are so high that it is comical. You literally will pay more in taxes and fees to the city than you’d ordinarily pay for the goods and services you are actually consuming. Like, up to 100% effective tax rates on consumption. Unsurprisingly, people noped out and now there is a new crisis because people that provided those services are underemployed or unemployed.

Is there? Because my understanding is Uber-delivered goods typically weren't profitable for the providers in any case (see: ghost kitchens, with lower costs than traditional restaurants, going bankrupt because of Uber's high fees). Killing the delusion dead is probably the best outcome.

So baffling.

You and all the commenters dont see the bigger problem: too much consumption tax could be the resut of tax cuts somewhere else, on someone with a bigger lobby than ordinary consumers.

If you follow that clue (balanced taxation between capital and labor/consumption, to me, the f'ing elephant in the room), youd might not end your problem descriptions with "look how high the minimum wage is".

Not just rideshare, but food delivery has been practically outlawed with all the taxes and fees. We have…

Sales tax: 10.25% on prepared delivery food.

Commission cap: Apps can only charge restaurants up to 15% per order, which leads to apps passing on fees to consumers

PayUp ordinance from 2024: delivery workers must be paid at least $0.44 per engaged minute + $0.74 per engaged mile, or a minimum of $5 per offer, whichever is greater. For 2025, those rates increase to $0.45/minute, $0.77/mile, or $5.20 per offer.

I tried to order 1 pad Thai and 1 curry the other night and it was going to be over $70. Insanity.

In most major metros, an entree is easily $25. So paying $50 for your food, $15 for somebody to deliver it to you, and $5 in taxes is really not all that crazy

Why do you have to pay taxes? You already paid them before salary hit your bank account (~30% in most countries) and anybody who receives your money will pay it as well.

Different taxes go to different places, and taxes do not exist only to take money from people. Amongst other reasons, they exist to discourage certain behaviors, pay for externalities, or because the market does not price in the costs of certain things.

Delivery seems expensive now because it was only ever made cheap by underpaying workers, giving them no benefits, making them cover their own car costs, and forcing them to rely on tips to survive. The truth is, having someone drive your pad thai and curry across town costs real money, and I’d rather pick it up myself than keep pretending cheap delivery was ever anything but exploitation.

> I’d rather pick it up myself than keep pretending cheap delivery was ever anything but exploitation

Then tip! The delivery driver can do more with that, plus OP's business, than with just your business and well wishes.

No! It is the company’s job to price their service to cover costs. I get to decide if I pay. Tipping does not make exploitation any less real. Of course I tip when necessary. That's besides the point.

> It is the company’s job to price their service to cover costs

They did. They made money. The delivery staff made money--OP is quoting the real, lived experience of actual gig workers. The government came in and decided that was unsavory, and so now those staff are making less (not counting the ones now unemployed).

> it is better to avoid them altogether imo

Not for the delivery driver!

There is always someone willing to work for a dollar. That doesn't mean we should abolish the minimum wage to exploit desperation.

Gig workers are just bullshit countries invented to hide unemployment. They don't ad anything to the economy. Nobody is buying a house or starting a family as a Uber delivery driver.

> doesn't mean we should abolish the minimum wage to exploit desperation

I agree. If all the city had done was raise the minimum wage (and make it applicable to these workers), that would have been fine. They didn't. They added a targeted tax.

> Nobody is buying a house or starting a family as a Uber delivery driver

Not in Seattle, but objectively untrue across the country. But also, I don't think it's fair to say we should render unemployed everyone who has a job that they can't start a family or buy a house on.

Was anyone buying a house or starting a family delivering pizza for dominoes as an employee?

Or, for that matter... as taxi drivers?

Tipping should never be expected and be part of the base salary

> Tipping should never be expected and be part of the base salary

I agree. Here, the choice is between tipping and rendering that person unemployed (or underemployed) because of projected morality. I'm arguing that it's better for the people one purports to help to hand over a tip and not support reducing their work, or worse, to advocate that others not use their services.

The problem isn’t that delivery itself is exploitation, just the delivery apps. The issue is that the claimed scaling factor that makes the apps work doesn’t exist. Turns out drivers get more money and delivery costs less if you pizza is delivered by a pizzeria employee than a delivery driving app contractor.

> Turns out drivers get more money and delivery costs less if you pizza is delivered by a pizzeria employee than a delivery driving app contractor

This has always been true for pizza, which is why pizza has offered delivery for decades.

and were able to, in most cases, do it in 30 minutes or less. otherwise the 'Noid gets them.

>Commission cap: Apps can only charge restaurants up to 15% per order, which leads to apps passing on fees to consumers

You mean you have to pay for the delivery service you're asking for? Shocking!

IMO it should be 0% of the cost should be borne by the restaurant. You still have a sizeable amount of your convenience being distributed to all patrons of the restaurant with 15%. That's 15% too much. Pay for what you ordered. I like to go in person, I don't want to support single-use delivery waste, Currently I'm forced to foot your bill if I want to go to any restaurant.

> I'm forced to foot your bill if I want to go to any restaurant

Deliveries are marginal business for a restaurant. Like, yes, as a consumer I have a better experience if a restaurant has lower volumes. But that's not as much fun if you're the restaurant!

Do you also lament that we have child labor laws?

Weird, I see no signs of food delivery being effectively outlawed. When I'm in a restaurant or passing by on foot or in my car.

I'm not convinced that food delivery is a net good for a culture, but that is a different discussion.

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