In general I agree that this sounds hard to believe, I'm more looking for words from some security experts on why that's such a damning quote to you/y'all.
In general I agree that this sounds hard to believe, I'm more looking for words from some security experts on why that's such a damning quote to you/y'all.
Just like how a physicist isn't just going to trust a claim in his expertise, like "Dark Matter found" from just seeing a headline in WaPo/NYT, it's reasonable that people working in tech will be suspicious of this claim without seeing technical details.
I genuinely do not know if this is the case anymore - I really do think we’ve reached a level of epistemological breakdown societally where “God is dead” again for us.
My fear right now is the percentage of the population that’s “poisoned” is well over 50% - that more people than not distrust those types of institutions, which is sufficient to mean that we’re no longer arguing as a nation whether toupee-wearing fits into our national ideals or who we want to be as a people, and indeed we cannot have those debates, because for us to discuss our values or positions, they need to be in reference to some shared common set of facts, and there’s not a source of facts shared in common by enough of the population for us to be able to generate any kind of consensus worldview to even debate.
It's very hard to combat. I hope since HN has an at least above average intelligence userbase and familiarity with the internet that we'd be better at fighting this. I hope we don't give up the fight.
I think some advice I got from another academic about how to serve as a reviewer applies more broadly.
It's easy to find flaws or critiques in a work. Your job as a reviewer isn't to help authors identify flaws, they are likely already aware. Your job is to determine if their flaws undermine their claims, even if their claims are accurate it's insufficient if not properly evidenced.
The point is that nothing is perfect. So the real question is if we're making progress to finding truth or if we're just being lazy or overly perfectionist. Or Feynman said something similar. (Not a precise quote) "the first rule is not to be fooled and you're the easiest person for you to fool"I dunno, and I'm not sure if you are including the major newspapers on the campaigner or victim group... but it would help if they weren't caught in blatant lies all the time.
Gell-Mann amnesia stops working once people hear about the concept.
Anyway, if the NYT published something on the lines of "public person X says Y in public", that would have high odds of being true. But "cybersecurity issue X identified in country-the-us-doesn't-like-Y" is almost certainly bullshit and even if there is something there, the journalist doesn't know enough to get the story right.
I am including the major news organizations and I specifically think they're a major contributor to post truth. It can't happen without them. Being caught in lies enables post truth because the point of this strategy is to make it difficult to determine what truth is. To overload the populous. The strategy really comes out of Russia where they specifically would report lies such as Putin killing dissidents, only for those people to turn up alive. You encourage conspiracies. The most recent example I can think of is how Trump going offline for a few days lit the world with conspiracy theories about him dying. Fucking major news networks bought into that too! It's insane to operate like that. But that's the point. That you have to question everything. I guess to put it one way, you need to always be in system 2 thinking. But you can't always be operating at that level and when doing for long periods of time you'll end up with an anxiety disorder.
I don't know if all major news networks are doing this intentionally or if it's a steady state solution optimization for engagement, but the result would be the same.
I'm saying this because look at my main comments. I'm trying to encourage finding the truth of the matter rather than react (which is what the OP was (rightfully) criticizing WaPo for).
> For the average person, being published in WaPo may still be sufficient, but this is a tech related article being discussed on a site full of people who have a much better than average understanding of tech.
I agree but also look at the responses to my comment above and the version in the main thread.People here aren't responding as techies, regardless of them being techies or not. I'm asking for help demonstrating or countering the claim but most responses are not responding in a way where we're trying to do this. Most responses are still knee jerk reactions. I understand how people misinterpret my comment as a stronger claim, and that is my bad, but it's also hard to avoid. So I want to agree with you but I also want to make sure *our* actions align with *our* words
I would like to keep HN a techie culture but it's a battle we're losing
Not defending this particular expert or even commenting on whether he is an expert, but as it stands, we have a quote from some company official vs. randos on the internet saying "nah-uh".
I find your verbiage particularly hilarious considering the amount of media and expert complicity that went into manufacturing the public support for the war on terror.
The media has always been various shades of questionable. It just wasn't possible for the naysayers to get much traction before due to the information and media landscape and how content was disseminated. Now, for better or worse, they laymen can read the bible for themselves, metaphorically speaking.
They shouldn't be reading anything for themselves and should be trusting the experts, even if those experts are sometimes wrong they will be more accurate than the average American.
Teaching someone to think for themselves, without first teaching them how to think is an invitation to disaster.
Only showboating "english language for the sake of it" type use cases need much beyond middle school reading level. News and the like aren't that because they need to reach a mass market. Professional communication needs to reach the ESL crowd and be unambiguous it too isn't that. Even legal literature is very simple. Professional and legal communication just have tons of pointers going all over the place and a high reading level won't help you with that.
It is fine to be simple, and to live a simple life. That does not mean that your ignorance is as good as an experts knowledge.
Worse, teaching people to think for themselves without first teaching them how to think does not just halt progress, it put's it into full retreat.
However, I actually AM being a bit of a snob as well. I'm proposing the deeply unpopular idea that not every person even has the capability to. It seems to have become a little-known fact that fifty percent of people are of below the median intelligence.
A lot of people are reluctant to admit that to themselves. They shouldn't be... It's an enormous relief when you finally realize that you don't have to have an opinion on everything.
I think saying things like "dO tHeIr OwN rEsEaRcH" contributes more to this deep distrust, because "do your own research" means different things to different people. To some people it means "read the same story from multiple sources rather than blindly trusting <whatever>" (which I think is good advice, especially nowadays), while to others it might mean "don't trust anything that anybody says, regardless of their qualifications" (which is bad advice). At a minimum, I think you should clarify what your actual position is, because the mocking way you've phrased it to me heavily implies that your position is the opposite, or "don't do your own research, just trust the experts." Don't forget that for most of history the "experts" were religious leaders. Where would we be today if nobody ever questioned that?
What gets more views/attention? Someone saying, "Yea, the consensus opinion makes general sense, although reasonable people can disagree about some details." or someone saying, "Scientists are trying to keep this knowledge away from us, but I know the truth. Keep watching to find out and join our club!"
I'm not asking people to blindly trust experts, but to stop blindly opposing them.
People put their names on it because it got them better jobs as propagandists elsewhere and they could sell their stupid books. It's a lot easier to tell the truth than to lie well; that's where the money and talent is at.
For one, half the things I see from that era had so much to gain from exaggerating the might and power of the Soviet Union. It's easy to dig up quotes and reports denying any sort of stagnation (and far worse - claiming economic growth higher than the west) as late as Andropov and Chernenko's premierships.
> Nobody trusts anyone or anything anymore.
Which, btw, is the goal of most disinformation campaigns. To create a post truth era.I'll say it's ironic that the strategy comes out of Russia because there's an old Russian saying (often misattributed to Reagan) that's a good defense: trust but verify
Compare this to the current NPM situation where a security provider is providing detailed breakdowns of events that do benefit them, but are so detailed that it's easy to separate their own interests from the attack.
This reminds me of Databrick's CTO co-authoring a flimsy paper on how GPT-4 was degrading ... right as they were making a push for finetuning.
What, CrowdStrike?