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Comment by UmGuys | Hacker News Reader

Serious question, will you abstain from voting? There are only 2 parties and they both fund Israel. One maybe slightly less.

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Half of democratic senators and zero Republicans voted to suspend arms sales to Israel. So, there's clearly a more amenable party in this debate. The Dems who didn't sign on, we lobby or primary.

I qualified it. Generally speaking, they both support it. They even called the campus protests for peace antisemetism during Biden's term. Of course the GOP are much worse, but there's definitely reason to dislike both in this regard.

Yes, I will. I will not vote for anyone who supports Israel. My vote is here for the taking, I just need to see an anti-Zionist candidate.

This line of reasoning helped get Trump in.

It’s hard to say what Harris would have done, but it’s unlikely she would have greenlit the complete demolition of Gaza so she could build a resort.

Similarly, I doubt she would have forced places like UC Berkeley to send her lists of people critical of Israel (like you), then opened critical investigations against them.

Refusing to vote is the best way to ensure policies you object to the most are expanded.

Committing genocide helped Trump win. That’s squarely on democrats.

I don't really understand this perspective. Obviously the consensus position across both parties has been to support Israel more. This is a bit murky with the (for lack of a better term) Nazi elements of maga, but GOP still claims to want to arm them more.

I don't vote for Zionists or genocide. It really is pretty simple. I also am unwilling to build my comfort on the backs of mass murder. In many ways it's better to have Trump so we can feel one tiny bit of the pain we're inflicting on others. We need drastic change and at some point the dam is going to break.

So when is the last time you voted for a president, if ever depending on your age?

Never and I feel very good about that given every candidate of my lifetime.

You realize that means you voted 0.5 votes for every candidate that has been in office then, right?

Congrats on supporting genocide.

I think on foreign policy, the two candidates weren't that far apart, (although I would suspect the winds would have shifted quickly under Kamala) Importantly, as someone pointed above that the difference is in the domestic agenda where Israel is used as an excuse for to crack down on institutions and dissent.

Then you're privileging your own sense of moral purity over the welfare of the Palestinians. The situation is manifestly worse for them now, as was predictable. I hope the cleanliness of your hands makes that bearable.

I'm sure the tens of thousands of Palestinians killed by "your team" would beg to differ. I don't vote for genocide, full stop. I also don't vote for Zionists. What's more important to democrats, Israel or winning elections?

You vote for the options you have, not the options you want. It was your choice, not the Democrats's fault.

Not voting for those committing genocide is an option I have and will take every time. If the democrats want my vote, they know how to win it.

Given a choice between a lesser and a greater evil, you abstained. The welfare of Palestinians is not your priority.

This type of false rhetoric to support genocide makes me feel even more confident in my decision. Want my vote? Oppose Israel. It’s as simple as that. People who commit genocide have no moral high ground.

Sometimes your vote isn't to support something, it's to limit the damage.

My vote for no one is to limit damage. It’s critical that we end Zionism and not supporting Zionists is the best way to do that. It’s incredible the lengths democrats will go to defend Israel. It’s time to move on (and start winning elections).

It’s not about moral fucking high ground, it’s about actual death and dismemberment that is actually happening that wouldn’t have. I can vote for the nazi that kills 100 jews, the nazi that kills 500, or vote for nobody; show me any alternative or else i gotta get in the booth for the first guy. Anything else is pretentious moralizing that costs lives.

Voting for Nazis makes you a Nazi.

To paraphrase you, I'm sure the tens of thousands of extra Palestinians killed by "your team" would beg to differ.

Biden was killing Palestinians just as fast as Trump. Neither of which are my team.

In this hypothetical “becoming a nazi” means I kill 400 less jews. Pretty shit nazi

Except that's not what's happened. Biden and Trump are killing an equal number of Palestinians. Stop asking people to support your genocidal candidates and start demanding better from your party or be relegated to the dustbin of history.

The race was between Kamala and Trump. If you legitimately believe Kamala winning would have made zero difference to the wellbeing of any Palestinians, I don’t know what to say.

>start demanding better from your party or be relegated to the dustbin of history.

Stop building strawmen and explain what I could have done on election day for the couple hours spent on voting that would have been more useful for the Palestinians than voting for Kamala, and explain why.

I know that Harris winning wouldn't have made any difference than Trump because she literally stated that she would not deviate from Biden's policy (which was as bad as Trump, if not worse).

The best thing you could have done on election day is not vote and encourage everyone you know to not vote. Our system is 100% corrupt and invalid, stop propping it up.

I will vote when there is an anti-Zionist running, until then I will abstain and encourage everyone to do the same. Very curious that going against Israel is beyond the pale for Democrats despite being a wildly popular position.

>Very curious that going against Israel is beyond the pale for Democrats despite being a wildly popular position.

Yeah cause they get money.

>Our system is 100% corrupt and invalid

Yes

>stop propping it up.

I’m not atlas holding the electoral system on my shoulders here. I think voting is unhelpful, but still worth doing when it’s the system that dominates our politics.

>The best thing you could have done on election day is not vote and encourage everyone you know to not vote.

Why does that help either change the dems or dismantle the electoral system? Most Americans don’t even vote, yet the system continues to exist just fine. If you’re saying discourage dems specifically from voting to send the party a message, again what if I’m helping elect someone worse towards Palestine?

>Biden's policy (which was as bad as Trump, if not worse).

How so? Don’t get me wrong, Biden was a-okay with the genocide, but Trump takes it a level further. There’s no attempt at an appearance of concern or moderacy.

Biden started the genocide, there would be nothing to take further if he hadn't done that. Biden also killed more people if you've been keeping track. I'm sure Trump is just as bad, but that's the point, they're both as bad as it can possibly get and both would kill Palestinians faster if they could. Not voting gives neither a mandate to do that though. It's one element that needs to be paired with direct action.

I don’t see how biden’s policy or rhetoric could be worse, and I feel like the things you’re bringing up are circumstantial. Israel has been messed up since like 1950 and it didn’t start with biden, nor do I see how he was the cause of it, more like he signed off on it. He had a lot more time than trump to kill people, so that doesn’t seem like proof of worse rhetoric and policy. I mean trump basically said he wanted gaza razed and turned into a tacky resort for tourists. That shit emboldens israel to do worse shit without fear of reprisal. With a dem president, they know they might at least run afoul of his/her base and have to be slightly toned down.

You must vote, but I wont fault anyone for voting 3rd party (or leaving a blank ballot, if you must).

Voting 3rd party sends a message: "be more like this 3rd party if you want my vote".

Not voting also sends a message: "I wont show up and vote, so just ignore me".

That's not true at all. Even Alexis de Tocqueville discussed the value in not voting. It takes away the mandate from politicians. I don't think we live in a real democracy and I'm not giving legitimacy to fake, fully-Zionist elections. Direct action is much more effective and at some point our government will dissolve if the vast majority of people exit the optics of fake democracy.

Are you saying that if enough people do not vote that our government will dissolve?

Yes.

Stop this nonsense.

It's hard to understand what you mean. Logically, if you don't want to support Israel, you should vote Dem or abstain as Dems support them slightly less.

No, I won’t stop. And you can’t make me.

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